Chariot Archers - Do You Build Them?

[Justice1337]

So, this is one aspect of my play that I never see anywhere else, so I wanted to get some input. Chariot Archers seem to me like a good idea whenever you have the Horses to build them. Here's the stats:

Chariot Archer
Cost: 56h
Strength: 6, Ranged: 10
Movement: 4
Requires Horses
No Defensive Terrain Bonuses

Archer
Cost: 40h
Strength: 5, Ranged: 7
Defensive Terrain Benefit

Composite Bow
Cost: 75h
Strength: 7, Ranged: 11
Defensive Terrain Benefit


So at least in terms of Ranged Strength per Hammer cost, CA's offer much more Strength than the Archer, and a very sizeable discount versus the Composite Bow. Considering how often these units are used, it would stand to reason that there would be a place for CA's.

Other concerns include:

Pro:
The techs are more useful early. AH gives a solid production boost if you find Horses, and a good tile improvement otherwise. The Wheel allows you to connect cities earlier, Horseback Riding allows the Stable for a good production/military boost, and they all lie on the path toward Civil Service and Education. Construction does not, and otherwise it only unlocks the far less useful Colosseums and Lumber Mills.

The production of Chariot Archers is boosted by the Stable building, and still receives ranged unit benefits like ToA.

Con:
Requires a situational start. Beyond requiring Horses out of the gate, the benefits of the tech path chosen are conditoned on city locations that would actually want to build Stables, have trapping resources, etc.

Even on those starts, you're foregoing the benefit of trading Horses for Gold instead.

Chariot Archers upgrade poorly into Horsemen with useless promotions.

Chariot Archers are vulnerable to Spearmen units, which the AI builds often.



All in all, I think there's enough upside and enough room to minimize the downside that we should be seeing Chariot Archers a lot more often than we are. Particularly the Horse Archer and War Chariot UU's that replace CA's I find very strong. I've been making great use of them as Egypt and the Huns, which civs I don't see others playing very much at all.

Thoughts?

 

[Vintage Port]

I used to dislike them but have come around to them. My biggest problem is fitting them into my build order unless I'm playing Egypt etc, or Arabia where I want to upgrade them.

In the current IC9 - America I think CA would have been great as there was lots of open space that they could have really excelled.

But I needed cash to upgrade my archers and rush buy a library so I sold my horses instead.

I'd like to have them but if I can get 90g or 180g (for 4) I would almost rather do that.

By the time I get my horses back I'm likely making horseman or knights if I sell it 2x.

 

[Unresolved]

I don't build them because they don't upgrade into another ranged unit. I prefer keeping my army intact throughout the eras to maintain highly promoted units. Using a highly promoted x-bow army is vastly superior to a newly made x-bow army with some promoted horse units. Not to mention that you'll have to rebuild your army once chariot archers become obsolete.

 

[Big J Money]

The Wheel allows you to connect cities earlier

I find the wheel comes earlier than I can afford to connect cities. I think you need to have a size 7 capital and a size 3 city for the shortest possible road (3 tiles long) to pay for itself. My numbers might be off by 1 here

Requires a situational start.

I don't see this as a con, so much as a hard limitation. If I'm surrounded by rough terrain I won't build CA's, period. And I will have likely already invested in the mining/bronzeworking/construction path for clearing out jungles, swamps and/or building lumber mills in such a location.

Ergo, for me it's simple. If I start in open plains terrain AND I can get horses, I will build CA's. If I can't get both of those, then I won't end up building them.

If my closest neighbor starts in plains too and doesn't have horses, I will probably put those chariots on the march

And if I'm Egypt, I don't need the horses obviously.

 

[Justice1337]

But I needed cash to upgrade my archers and rush buy a library so I sold my horses instead.

This seems awkward, because if you'd had CA's instead you wouldn't need to spare the cash to upgrade. It seems like CA's actually save you cash over Composite Bowmen. I suppose to go that route you would need to risk going AH instead of Archery, then not build Archers provided you had Horses. This probably involves a fair bit of risk, of course.

 

[anthropophage]

If I'm Egypt, Huns, Arabia, India or Mongolia I make 'em. They're ok, unit for unit CBs are better, but it's often easier to concentrate fire with CAs. They're a bit of a glass cannon but very powerful over open ground where you've got room to maneuver.

 

[anthropophage]

This seems awkward, because if you'd had CA's instead you wouldn't need to spare the cash to upgrade. It seems like CA's actually save you cash over Composite Bowmen.

You don't get to sell any horsies though...

A half dozen archers cost 240 hammers and 480 gold for upgrades to get CBs.
A half dozen CAs cost 336 hammers and 270 gold worth of horses.

I think the CBs are a stronger army, but when the CAs win a battle they're much more effective in pursuit and exploitation (with the risk of outrunning your meatshield and getting crushed in a way that just doesn't happen to CBs.).
The advantages of going CAs is that you don't have to detour into construction, your army is much less road dependent cutting overheads and you spend less gold on upgrades.
The disadvantage is that you tech them later than archers and they build more slowly. They're about the same price as composites, but you'll probably get your hands on 6 CBs earlier than you'll get 6 CAs (selling 6 horses gets you most of your archers upgraded, for instance).

 

[Philosophia]

You don't get to sell any horsies though...

Yeah but you're not spending money upgrading archers to composite bows.

 

[Vintage Port]

This seems awkward, because if you'd had CA's instead you wouldn't need to spare the cash to upgrade. It seems like CA's actually save you cash over Composite Bowmen. I suppose to go that route you would need to risk going AH instead of Archery, then not build Archers provided you had Horses. This probably involves a fair bit of risk, of course.

I guess in my situation (build order and tech) I can't always afford to get to the wheel right away and I need defense early (i.e., archers). It is kind of a catch 22. Do I have time to get to the wheel? Do I have horses? Do I have time to build CA or could I just pump out 3-4 archers early that will help protect against a very early rush?

I find it just works well for my and my build/tech order do get archers. The combination of needing to get the wheel and have horses is the downside - not to mention terrain.

No doubt they can be good (I've changed my mind on that) but I struggle to fit them in and as unresolved said above, they poorly upgrade as they lose their range, and I need range when attacking cities.

 

[joncnunn]

This could really use a sometimes option instead of binary.
Of course I'm not going to build them in every game, but I'm not going to skip it in every game either.

These are better when you're playing the Arabs or Mongols (who also have a replaced replacement to Knights)

As to Composite Bows; I normally don't manually build those (or any future unit on the line). I instead build as many foot solder ranged units as I'll ever want while they are still Archers and just upgrade them all. (The real cost of Composite Bow for me is 80 gold)

 

[ense7en]

In SP, extremely rarely.

In MP, they can be rather deadly and useful since every unit helps.

 

[nanomage]

I think we lack an option for those who just build them rarely or situationally.
I'll surely want to build them if you have CA-based UU: India, Huns, Egypt, or if they'll upgrade into ranged knight UU: Mongols, Arabs. I'll also build a few on a flat map for barb quests or mayve for army support.
They're kinda lackluster because they're really useless in medieval and upgrading them before they have at least march feels like a waste.

 

[RealHuhn]

Their upgrade path isn't a big problem for me.

They only need two promotions to unlock march which is very useful on knights and cavalry.
For example, if you upgrade a chariot with two flat terrain promos to a knight, you can still pick march as your third promotion.

Also, chariots are available a lot earlier than CBs. Good for rushes on maps with enough open terrain or for defense when you go wide and have to defend on multiple borders.

 

[nanomage]

...
For example, if you upgrade a chariot with two flat terrain promos to a knight, you can still pick march as your third promotion.
...

Didn't know that so I waited for them to get march before upgrade. I'll definitely try it now

 

[darkskies]

If I have a large area of flat terrain to defend against barbs (I play with raging) then I'll usually build (buy) one as he can usually take the place of two barb hunting archers. Some games though they just don't seem worth it because of their rough terrain handicaps. I don't find the upgrade path much of a problem because by the time I don't need 'em for barb hunting anymore I can just send them through a couple of upgrades, but again I don't build more than one or two.
Once I had two cities on a smallish island and I used one to quickly switch back and forth between the cities to strengthen them against ship attacks and speed ship shinking while I was busy with most units elsewhere, don't think I've done that since going G&K since barb sea attacks are now rare.
I wouldn't really miss them though if they were replaced with something else.

 

[EEE_BOY]

A common misconception: spearman does NOT have bonus agaisnt chariot archor.

 

[slowcar]

Their upgrade path is what breaks them. I like them, but having archer promotions on melee horse units makes them not worth upgrading.

 

[Loucypher]

I did get a mod that fixes the ranged/melee promotions issue. It makes spamming these guys a lot more interesting, that much is for sure. Comp Bow is still slightly better IMO (Sturdier and not weak to a specific unit), but they're worth it otherwise.
And without mods? Well if you play as Arabia or Mongolia...hooo, those early promotions make for even better Keshiks or Chariot Archers.

 

[dr.skeletor]

I put "no", but it's more like "I don't ever try for them". I don't really play as the Mongolians, Arabians or Egyptians ever, so I never try for them. If I've got horses, great, I might put out an extra if for some reason I didn't build my archers, but they're never going to be the bulk of my army like cbows are.

This thread has made me reevaluate their usefulness, though, so next time I get horses and some decent terrain, I'll try going these guys instead of cbows for kicks.

 

[Matthew.]

I build them occasionally. I think what a lot of people don't like about them is while CB's keep your "strategy intact" from era to era, the upgrade path on chariots force you to adapt.