Chieftain: Huge Map: every AI possible

[ChaosArbiter]

[EDIT]: also, I still don't see how to get embassies. I open the Foreign Advisor and left- and right-click on the leaders but either the relations are displayed or the only Civilopedia opens up, respevtively.

To establish Embassies, you need to use the Espionage screen - either Shift+E, or click the little "E" button on the right side of the info-box (the "D" gives you a list of all the civs you've contacted, along with whether you're at Peace or War, which is useful if there are a large number of civs and you need to see who you're at war with).

 

[MysteryX]

You can also get the screen to create Embassies by going to your capital on the map, and clicking on the little star icon beside the name of your capital.

 

[CommandoBob]

[EDIT]: CommandoBob: " ... create science farms..."

me: I finally understood what you said. I will work on it. One question though - should my science farms be near my borders or in my "back country?" I am anticipating a war with the Iroquois and figure they should be away from the borders b/c they will fall very fast. So far all my small cities are the ones I am using to absorb the AI into my territory.

As a general rule, any border cities should always have a garrison, even in Republic. If you are massively powerful, that will deter the AI from being too frisky, but only some. So keeping some units in the border cities will make the task of attacking you less inviting. And the AI will only look at border cities it can attack. The AI won't plan on taking one border city and then using it to gobble up the undefended inner cities. That can happen, but only when the border city is weakly defended.

Where the science farms are located is so map and game specific. If there is enough space I like to have a protected area for the geeks. But if they are next to another civ I just make sure they are well defended.

1800 AD
In your game, you have expanded America westwards and now have cities on both shores. Good. That gives you a dividing line of what to do and where to do it.

1. Sell your Temples.
2. Sell your Cathedrals.
3. Change any Cathedral builds into Universities (more science).
4. Attack Aztecs and capture Tlacopan quickly. It sits on Saltpeter. That means you can build Muskets now (they defend better than Pikes) and Cavalry, once you learn Military Tradation.
5. Pick off the isolated Aztecs cities first and then just steamroll their core, starting in the NE and moving SW.
6. Then do the same to England.
7. This newly conquered land can become your science farm area. There is a lot of jungle to clear, so you may want to raze and replace some cities to gain slaves.
8. Be careful of where you build courthouses; San Francisco (6 corrupt shields out of 11) needs one but Las Vegas (1 corrupt out of 7) does not.
9. You own Leonardo's Workshop. Good. Upgrading Knights to Cavalry (70 shield cost vs. 80 shield cost) will be cheap.
10. Don't worry about building up cash at this point in this game. Learn Military Tradition first so that you can build Cavalries and Armies (Military Academy, a Small Wonder).
11. Build an embassy with Japan for 55 gold.
12. As soon as you declare war on Aztecs, try to get Maya, Persia and Japan to agree to a Military Alliance vs. Aztecs. They probably won't send any units to attack any Aztec cities, but this does prevent the Aztecs from getting them to sign MAs vs. you.
13. If you sign up England to an MA, don't attack England until the MA expires. Otherwise you break your trade rep and that could hurt you later.
14. If you don't sign England to an MA expect the Aztecs to do so. Fortify your cities on England's border accordingly.
15. Memphis (12) is a well managed city; zero growth and four geeks. Nearby Buffalo (12) is not; eight extra food and one clown; it can hire three more specialists.
16. Do not let the city governor manage the cities. On the city governor screen you should have three boxes marked 'Yes':
    • Emphasize Production
    • Never build Wonders
    • Never build Small Wonders
    And that should be for "All Cities". This will stop the game from trying to build United Nations in a size 1 city out in the boonies. This should also be the default for all new cities.
17. While you could attack Atecs and get Saltpeter this turn, I would not. The main Aztec border needs some beefing up to withstand the Aztecs attack on America. New Houston and Pittsburgh are very lightly defended and would be first targets of the Aztec counterattack.

Looks like a fun game. With a little work you could probably conquer the world by 2000 AD, more likely a whole lot earlier.

 

[CommandoBob]

I couldn't help myself. I played 10 turns to get a feel for this game. It could be a fun one.

Spoiler :

Overview
Taking over from LivingDog and playing around with his last save. Playing as America, with 71 cities to this point, Chieftain, Huge, Pangea.

Military Tradition is 7 turns away at 10%.

Not sure how he wanted to win, but Conquests looks doable. We need Saltpeter which the Aztecs have. We need science farms and have a lot of space to put them, in the areas now occupied by the Aztecs and England.

Don't plan to go into a lot of detail.

The games has 8 hours 17 minutes of time logged to it so far.

At 80% tax we have 339 gold and net +323 gpt.

Sell off all Temples, cathedrals and Colossuems.

Now at 1709 gold and +411 gpt.

No cranky cities.

Hire some geeks in cities that are growing in 9999 turns; we learn Military Tradation in 5, not 7, gpt drops to 381 gpt.

Raise science to 50%, Military Tradition in 2, +44 gpt, 1709 gold.

Overall, I think that there are too many cities too close together. Can't explain it very well, however.

Oh, this is the start of 1800 AD, not the end. Some units on automove, which is fine. This is not a Succession Game and not my game.

Cycle through the cities and touch every unit in a city.

Upgrade select Spears to Pikes and Horses to Knights.

Now at 1214 in gold, +44 gpt.

Start moving Knights up north towards the three isolated Aztecs cities (and Saltpeter). Trebs and catapults move that way also.

We are strong compared to all the other civs.

1802 AD
Cannot drop science any and learn Military Tradation this IBT.

[IBT]
England is twitchy over a galley; preboot given.

Military Tradition -> Theology in 4 at 50%.

1804 AD
Drop science to 10% and still learn Theology in 4, +384 gpt, 1244 gold. Theology is known by everyone except us and China.

Philadelphia is building Palace. Using that as a prebuild for Military Academy won't work because Military Academy needs a victorious Army.

Start building slaves in captured cities.

Military Tradition is a Monopoly Tech at the moment.

1806 AD
Our culture per turn has dropped from 315 to 160. It is the second fastest culturally growing civ; the Mongols are clipping along at 202 cpt. In total culture we have 26985 cp; second place Maya has 8422. No chance of Maya pulling out in front of us.

And with 71 cities, we are by far the largest civ. Portugal has 26 and Iroquois 23, down to Japan, England and Mongols tied for last with 12 cities each.

Time in the game at this point, start of the turn: 9 hours and 58 minutes.

Had one last worker on auto move. Well, I hope it is the last one. Anyway, it is under manual control now.

We are not perfectly prepared for an Aztec counterattack but I think we will do okay. We have 4 Maces next to Tlacopan (1) ready to get some Saltpeter and 10 Knights in New Memphis, earmarked for Teayo (6) and then Ixtapaluca (3).

We ask for Theology from the Aztecs and we get it, instead of war. I didn't expect that.

But we don't get Education or Printing Press. So we declare war on the 14 cities of the Aztec nation.

Tlacopan's two Spears get squashed by artillery and Maces (2 of 2). The city is destroyed, not exactly what we had in mind. But its ruins are now inside our borders. We move two workers onto the ruins, to road next turn.

Teayo's two Spears perish to our Knights (4 of 4). We keep the city, hire geeks and start on a worker. And rename it to x01 Teayo.

Ixtapaluca's two Spears retreat a Knight before they are routed (6 of 7).

We run down a Jag Warrior (7 of 8).

To the north of Ixtapaluca is Huexotia (Exotic Hues?), size 3, defend with an rMusket. We send 4 Knights across the border.

From New Cleveland we move a Pike 1N across the Aztec border and find their capital. We send a Knight against the vSpear and it retreats (7 of 9).

Taledo City, formerly of Aztecia, gets upset, so we rush the worker and hire a geek.

Education in 4, science at 10%, +380 gpt, 1836 gold.

Build an embassy in Japan for 55 of 1836 gold. Kyoto will finish the Sistine Chapel this turn.

International Scene
Talk to Maya and pay them 15 gpt for an MA vs. Aztecs. Cheap. Done.
Maya (16) DoW Aztecs (11).

Talk to Persia. They must have an Aztec grudge since they want only 4gpt to join the fun. Suits us. Done.
Persia (13) DoW Aztecs.

Japan plays hard to get but finally 19 gpt and they hop on board.
Japan (12) DoW Aztecs.

We build an embassy with England for 38 of 1781 gold. England has one Horse resource. London is size 4 and building a Market.
England also has an ROP with Aztecs and that is not good for us.
Wow. England only needs to be asked to start kicking the Aztecs around. Free is good. Done.
England (12) DoW Aztecs.

All our nearest "friends" are now at war with Aztecs. Nice.

Our MAs drop our gpt down to +342. Nice, sweet deals.

Now we wait and see what the Aztecs do on their turn.
[IBT]
Mongols and Persia sign an MA vs. Aztecs.

Sistine Chapel is built in Kyoto, Japan.

1810 AD
We signed an MA and ROP with Maya. Oh, well.

No Aztec counterattacks.

Two Knights overpower the Musket and Spear in Huexotla (9 of 11).

At the Aztec capital two Spears face down three Maces (11 of 14).

We now control The Great Library, built for us by the Aztecs in Tenochtitlan. We will learn Education this IBT and maybe some more techs, too. This is something I did not plan on, so it is a sweet bonus.

Cycle through the cities and change Knights to Cavalry and some Trebuchets to Cannons.
[IBT]
Maya wants to talk. That bothers me. They offer their Territory Map for our Territory Map and Military Tradition. Not hardly.

One Aztec counterattack and we lose a Knight to a Longbow (11 of 15).

We learn Printing Press. Education. Banking. Astronomy. Navigation. Physics.

We start on Theory of Gravity, 11 turns at 10%.

Copernicus' Observatory is built in Karakorum, Mongolia.


1812 AD
Six techs we picked on the IBT. Not bad.

We sell Navigation to Byzantines for Territory Map, Music Theory and 88 of 88 gold.

Philadelphia Palace in 2 -> JS Bach's Cathedral in 1, wasting 375 shields.

Trample on a lone Aztec Longbow (12 of 16).

Upgrade Knights to Cavalry for 15 gold each, but I lost count of how many. Some Catapults and Trebuchets were upgraded also.

Raise science to 50%, Theory of Gravity in 4, +6 gpt, 2115 gold.

Begin moving workers to the capital in expectation of rails.

The only tech we lack that is known is Democracy. Netherlands knows it but none other.
[IBT]
China is lonely. World Map for World Map and our knowledge of Monotheism. Nada.

JS Bach's Cathedral is built in Philadelphia.


Magellan's Voyage is built in Edo, Japan.

1814 AD
All resistance has ended.

Aztecs have two Dyes visible. We want them.

We try to grab Tlaxcala (5) with our Cavalry but fail, mauling a Musket but getting stuck by a Spear (13 of 18).

We do better at Atzcapotzalco (6) where a Musket and Spear perish (15 of 20). This now gives us a straight line Aztec border as we claim more jungle and marshes.
[IBT]
Iroquois have the same swap request as Maya did earlier. We give the same answer.

Mayas take Chalco (2) from the Aztecs.

Raise science to 60% and we learn Theory of Gravity this IBT; -83 gpt, 1803 gold.

1816 AD
The two Spears in Tlaxaca (4) cannot stop our Cavlaries (17 of 22). This time we find some gold in the city coffers, one small gold coin.

Dyes are connected to the capital of Washington.

We buy a slave from England for 84 of 1917 gold.

1818 AD
Tlateloco (6), the second capital of the Aztecs, is now ours (19 of 24).

We find and capture Malinalco (6), gaining another source of Dyes and 2 gold (21 of 27).

Maya might be able to capture Tamuin on the IBT. We block the roads that lead from Tamuin into our territory, so that we can claim the rest of Aztecia for ourselves.
[IBT]
Rome is chatty. Offers to swap Territory Maps. We only see a handful of Roman tiles at the moment (nice factoid from MapStat), only 60, while we see 77 Aztec tiles. I like the idea but I'll pass right now and look into buying some maps while we control the game. So we say, No.

Maya takes Tamuin, like expected.

1820 AD
I expected to learn Theory of Gravity on the IBT. Must have been the loss of geeks in x08 Malinalco and x07 Tlateloco when the resistance ended. I thought the science slider was high enough but I was wrong.

Ok, drop science down to 0%, Theory of Gravity in 1, +423 gpt, 1720 gold.

England took Tzintzunten from Aztecs, too. Now they have a two city empire.

Three Cavalry pick off the Musket, Spear and Longbow in Xochicalco (5), the third Aztec capital (24 of 30).

Cempoala (5) is barely within the reach of our remaining Cavlary. The two Spears don't stand a chance (26 of 32). We gain a city and 16 gold.

And the Aztecs are gone.

All our Military Alliances are now over.

Now what?

England is next. They have Horses but lack Iron and Saltpeter. Their best defender is a Spear. We send a scouting Cavalry towards the newest English city and find 3 rHorses outside the city.

Declaring war on England has some dangers. We have some undefended cities near the English border, and those will be tempting for England to take. But I don't think England's military is strong enough to do much, so while we may lose one or two small cities we will quickly get them back.

We talk to England. We start by demanding their World Map. They give it! They know most of our side of the world, but not much to the east.

We demand their gold. We get all 28 pieces of it.

They have nothing else to take, so we Amercia (81) declare war on England (13).

At the moment we have Persian, Mayan and Japanese troops inside our borders. We don't want them to go away just yet.


International Scene
Talk to Maya and pay them 13 gpt for an MA vs. England. Took 15 for them to wallop the Aztecs.
Maya (18) DoW England.

Talk to Persia. Their price has gone up. They need 5 gpt to join the fun and we pay it.
Persia (13) DoW England.

Japan barely needs to be convinced to come to this party, only 6 gpt and they are on their feet raring to go.
Japan (12) DoW Aztecs.

We elimate the short stack of English Horses (29 of 35).

Our newly captured Aztec cities are pretty productive. While we need to starve them down and/or cash rush workers (Aztec) we don't need to dilute their productivity with a bunch of inbetween cities.

We snipe a Spear at Newcastle (30 of 36).

We sell our Territory Map to Portugal for their World Map.

Wow. Portugal has a huge island all its own.

We sell our TM to Spain for their WM and 10 of 10 gold.
We sell our TM to Inca for their WM and 20 of 20 gold.
We sell our TM to Mongols for their WM and 12 of 12 gold.

We have uncovered all of our landmass, both sides of it (it has a 6 tile choke point that could be exploited by China, Mongolia or Persia). There are some outlier cities but the owners won't trade their maps. We'll have to get them later.


Game clock: 14 hours and 46 minutes.

What Has Changed
Aztecs are gone.
Captured The Great Library and learned six techs from it.
Built JS Bach's Cathedral.
Theory of Gravity due this turn.
Now own a Saltpeter resource.
Cavalries are in play.
So are Muskets.

War with England.
Military Alliances with Maya, Japan and Persia vs. England.
England has no known source of Iron or Saltpeter. Thus, best defender will be Spears.

Bought a lot of maps. This continent is now known.

America is the tech leader.

Things to Consider
In cities captured from Aztecs we are building workers. It is okay to spend gold to rush these. The idea is to build workers (Aztec), i.e. slaves, not native workers. The difference is upkeep. Slaves are free; workers cost gold per turn in unit upkeep. Plus, as slaves are built, the size of the city decreases which in turn reduces the chances of it flipping. This can only be done until the city is at size 1. Then it needs to grow again.

Workers are heading to the core area around Washington. This keeps them away from the front and lessens their chance of capture. Theory of Gravity is almost here, then Magnetism and then Steam Power in the next age. The main reason the workers are heading towards Washington is to build railroads in a few turns.

Once England is dead it is time to find another victim. At the moment I am not sure who is best. But whoever is selected, Maya, Japan or Persia, make sure the other two sign MAs with you. With any luck, they will fight it out inside American borders and each of them will be weaker and easier to take down later. I think Maya is the strongest of the three. But whoever the intended victim is, be sure to send Muskets to cities along that border before you declare. They may not be as weak as Aztecs and England.

Use the catapults, trebuchets and cannons to inflict damage upon units before you attack them. That won't work too well against England, but after England is gone and enemy units are inside American borders it will become much easier.

In the next age, Steam Power should be your next tech, so that you can build railroads. There should be a source of Coal inside America's borders. If not, find one and take it. After Steam Power, head for Replaceable Parts. That gives you Infantry, which attack like Cavalry but defend better, Artillery, which has a range of two tiles, and faster workers.

There are many small cities in the core area that don't need to be there. Instead of abandoning them, set them to zero growth and produce workers and settlers. Eventually the city will go away.


And the save is attached.

 

[vmxa]

LivingDog, thanks for posting the save and staying with it. I was looking for somethign to do and found this yesterday. I played out to around 1665AD from your first save.

Not sure if the log is of any use to you, but here is what it looks like:

The first thing I looked at is the trades status. I really don't know what has occurred, but it is rarely in your best interest to give someone furs and horses. I should mention that the preference are not very useful. Not even using wait at end of turn. Not using the show buttons, not using animate battles.

There is certainly no reason to fear the Aztecs and no reason to make them stronger by giving them Furs and Horses. I see that at one point you were at war and took one of Monties towns. I do not see that town now. What I do not know is is the current deal a peace deal or a trade for a tech or some other consideration.

The next thing is to see why we have such a haphazard empire layout. USA towns are spread out past Az empire and we have at least two Az towns in our sphere. This is a huge insult to us and needs to be corrected. No one is allowed to have towns in our sphere and we do not build or keep towns that are not adjacent to our borders.

It just makes things more dangerous. We now have to have defenders in many places in the event that Montie decides to send out unit(s). We need to solidify.

We have many large gaps in the empire where we should put down towns. We have about 140gpt in support. This is in partly due to our lack of towns and in part due to towns not becoming cities. In part too many units not earning their keep.

Not much point in having lots of troops, if you are not going to fight.

First act is to cancel the gems to Japan. I do not want 5gpt, they are worth far more than that them. I would rather they not get them.

Next I cancel the RoP with Smoke, what do I need that for anyway? I never want others in my land and if I need to go to their land, it will be with guns blazing.

Disband a conscript warrior. It should not have been put into a town. They scout and get disbanded, unless they promote to vets.

Buffalo has a hand built granary? Why it does not have an aqua and cannot grow past size 6 without one.You are just paying maint for a half food box that is never going to trigger a new citizen. The aqua is a decent idea, but this is a border town and needs a wall and a barracks. I switch to a rax. Sell the granary. Put two citizens on as scientist.

Go around to all workers to stop them, if they are doing things I think can wait. Lets get the workers into gangs. I see lots of units moving around I can only catch one.

Baltimore switch Lib to a wall. This town is next to two nations and is very vulnerable to attack right now.

Memphis is making a pike and no rax, do not like troops without a barracks. Switch to a settler. Lets claim the land and get the iron in our borders for good. If Liz dropped a settler out there we would lose the colony. I also dislike colonies. Plant a town instead.

Houston another pike with no rax, switch to a settler. Sell the Colosseum. This Chief, why would you need happy structures? It cost 120 shields and 2gpt, ouch.

Cincinnati also making a pike and no rax. Switch to settler and rush it. Get the land before someone else does. We also need the unit support.

I also need to mention the fact that we have not even explored the continent we are on and it is 1390AD.

KC, switch lib to cheaper temple and rush it. We are pressed to the point we do not even have the tile adjacent to the center tile. This is too much culture pressure and does not afford us the means to stop an attack without a warning.

Seattle I switch treb to court and sell the colosseum.

Detroit is also under pressure and even with a lib is not even able to have the tile next to the CC. Switch temple to barracks. We do not need more culture we need to upgrade to pikes or replace them.

St Louis, oh my, we have Sun Tzu going up in a size 6 town with no aqua and only 1 mine. Not only that, but it is also under pressure and does not even own its skinny cross. This place is making a net 7 shields and now has about 180 in the box.

If you wanted it here, put up an aqau and grow it. Improve the tiles, what if it flipped or was overrun? If you have it going up in DC, it would have close to 440 in the box. I have to think about what to do here as I have no clue how long others have been working on the wonder or if we have any cascade to worry about. Will have to check and see how much I can figure out on those things.

Ok, unless we get an SGL we are not getting Sun Tzu. Even though the AI has to make 1200 shields for it, they will get it. KT is underway and we could get that, except 7 nations are on Sun Tzu, so a cascade is assured. We do not know Mono, let alone Chiv.

4 nations are making KT, so knights will soon be active and we are strung out all over the map.

I switch Sun Tzu to an aqua and take the hit.

Philly sell the colosseum.
Chicago sells its colosseum.

Atlanata sells its and it needs water to grow. Will make a harbor here to get the food.
San Diego gets a wall. Stop the workers and will get them out of the firing line.

Richmond is making a worker, but cannot finish it as it is size 1. Switch to a wall and realize walls are 20 shields? Traits maybe?

Miami, sigh, it is size 2 not growing and has a colosseum. Was making a barracks, but makes only 4 net shields. Switch to worker and sell the colosseum. Sell its temple and wall. It is not going to have to deal with any real attack.

New York switch to settler. Sell the colosseum and wall.
New Orleans switch to a settler. I already forgot if it had a colosseum, but it does not now.

Los Vegas switch to wealth as it has no food and put lone pop to science.
Boston sell colosseum and wall. Switch pike to settler.

DC, houston we have a problem. Courts are of no use in the capitol. It has no corruption and cannot flip. Sell wall, sell granary (we are size 12). Sell colosseum. Switch to MDI. Note under playing AW at DG or better or on a tiny map, you should never need a wall in the capitol.

Denver switch to settler.

Find a galley sleeping and wake it to try to expose more of the map. Drop expenses to save 28gpt, after the loss of 5gpt trade. I see there are nations still unmet.

1395AD:
Well I guess I got that one as Sun Tzu was done by someone and then KT cascaded. It was Japan on Sun's and Persia on KT.

Had to go around and turn off the gov in every town, I forgot to do it.

1415AD:
Trade Eng to Inca for Mono. We have about 5 new towns down and a settler on site. Will trade Invention around after the Mayan deal expires, so I can try to get the lux back.

1430AD:
Trade Invention to Japan for Chiv and some gold and some gpt. Do not peddle it around as no one has any money. Only the deal for the horses left to expire.

1435AD:
I see Inca has a workers so I trade Chiv for it and some gold. Tula flipped to me, will pop out a worker then a settler and abandon it and put a town next tile over. The worker is to make a road on the old site.

1440AD:
Finally get a bunch of spears to Albuquerque to finsih rushing the temple. I want to get a border pop to grab the spice.

1450AD:
Sell Mono to Rome for about 170 iirc. Start on Chem. None of the desert, hills or mountains have salt. A glance around does not show any in the neighbors lands either.

There must be more than the one umet showing in the espionage screen.

1465AD:
Spices online. Sell temple.

1470AD:
Xerk starts on Sistine, but will not trade Theology right now.

1490AD:
Horse deal ended last turn, but I wanted to get a couple of units moved. Met Henry and Shaka. Surprised to be able to trade Invention for Theo and get 40 gold from Shaka. Start on Metal. DOW Montie now.

Knight and MDI take down two spears and we capture Tlacopan and its salt. I would abandon, but I need to get a worker to the site to get a road down. Upgrade two pikes.

1495AD:
Raze some city next to San Diego and get 5 slaves and elite knight. Settler will be there next turn to make a new town.

1500AD:
Raze Teotihuacan using cats/mdi. 2 slaves.
Razed a town between Cincinnati and KC to get the road open for the iron. 3 slaves.
Abandon the salt town and put up a road to bring that back online. Montie has not sent out any units. One LB attacked a unit next to their capitol. I have killed some spears there, but the slow movers are only now in place for next turn.

IBT:
was a gas as a LB attacked my knight and make us another elite. Then a 1hp knight got attacked and won and promoted.

The next unit attacked it and it retreated. So 2 knights with 3HP bweteen them won 2 and tied one and both go elite.

1505AD:
MDI goes elite and 3/5 knight kills the damaged LB and we take down their capitol. Had a worker in it. We are the tech leader, everyone is down at least 1 tech. We have 2 civs not met. (game over really, no way to lose)

1510AD:
Trade Theology to Liz for a worker. Found Olympia. Met Spain. MDI kills an archer covering 2 settlers.

1520AD:
Captured Tlaxcala and dyes.

1525AD:
raze their latest capitol. Capture Teayo.

1530AD:
Met Hiawatha and all are known. Trade them Theo for cash and trade Currency to Mao for a worker. Found town. Start on MT.

1535AD:
Capture town and found one. Capture settler. 6 lux in hand, so no issues with happiness.

1540AD:
Capture another town I cannot spell.

1545AD:
captured Tamuin. Capture another nasty named town.

1550AD:
capture Chalco.

1555AD:
capture Malinalco.

1560AD:
capture Cempoala. Capture Huexotla. I think they are OCC.

1565AD:
Montie is gone.

1570AD:
A few towns are added and MT will come in on the IBT.

 

[vmxa]

1575AD:
I forgot how bad they are at this level with a cost factor of 20. I had captured the GLB, but they have not even research Education. I have started it on my own.

1605AD:
Start on Astro. Going to attack Liz next turn. Have Leo's and upgraded some knights.

1610AD:
capture Oxford and Warwick.

1615AD:
capture Brighton and Coventry.

1620AD:
capture York and Hastings. Get a leader finally and for an army. Plant another town to fill.

1630AD:
captured Newcastle.

1635AD:
Start on Banking. Switch DC from Sistine to Copes. Army won on defense so start HE. Not starting MA at this time.
Capture Livrpool.

1640AD:
capture London.

1645AD:
capture Canterbury.

1650AD:
Capture Nottingham.

1660AD:
capture Dover and Liz is done.

 

[vmxa]

I should have mentioned that IF you do not want to annoy other nations, do not plant towns where you overlapped their borders. At this level, it is not important, if they are annoyed, at middle or high levels you may get a DOW right then as it is an act of war.

 

[LivingDog]

I am still with it but have taken a detour. I am playing CivI:
1) to just own the very first game - that's cool to me, hec, it was $12.95! (I also own CivII now. I want to track the dev of the game... for no reason. )
2) to discover the most fundamental secret of the game - HOW TO CONTROL a city's growth!

I thought I would learn how to play by playing the max number of enemy. In fact I have learned alot from this forum - this thread in particular and all you repliers. But the 'growth' thing still eludes me. (And playing CivI only made me realize that I haven't learned it for CivIII yet.)

But never mind CivI - the 'growth' issue is valid on all levels throughout the CivUniverse. Why hasn't any one written a "How to ..." for the fundamentals? I know resources are important - I know my city needs to EXPAND, RESEARCH, and GROW - d'-freakin'-uh!, but no where is the "how to" skill for GROWTH mentioned!

• EXPAND: make a settler, move him to a cozy spot, build city. Roads and irrigation follow.
• RESEARCH: spend money to develop a new technology. New units follow.
• GROWTH: (sound of crickets in the forest)

Click on a square in the City Display... it changes - ooooo - pretty... so what?? Change an entertainer to a taxman - oooo - pretty ... so what?? How does this affect my income? Is my city now richer? ...poorer? ...happier??? sadder!?!? Will King Kong move to New York and find true love?? Is Elvis living in Japan???

Even in CivI my Financial Adviser keeps pestering me about "YOUR BROKE YOU MORON!!!" (paraphrased : ) yet I sit on my thumbs thinking ... "It's magically delicious... and money will take care of itself!!!" (<-- happy idiot)

***sigh***

BTW, I printed out CommandoBob's and vmxa's 2 replies for later study once I can move on beyond this most annoying fundamental, which, after all this time, after all this play, after all this exceptional help I STILL HAVEN'T DISCOVERED!!!

This lack of understanding is what is holding me back. If I can actually control - in detail - my City's growth, then I think I can start owning the AI on the Chieftain level and move on to more challenging games and levels.

Thanks a bunch to all you CivFanatics members for your help and patience with me, the highest level butt-head! (no smilie available)

 

[vmxa]

Growth takes care of itself for the most part. Your town will have a box around it that covers 9 tiles that all touch the towns city center. The game will place the starting citrizen on what it thinks is the best tile.

The founding of the town opens the city view and you can see where it placed the pop to work. You need to see, if that is the best tile for your purposes. You want to have food produced from that tile to allow growth.

It takes 2 food to feed a citizen. You have the city center that always give 2 food at a minimum. If your starting pop is working a grass tile you get 2 food from that, so your are at +2. IOW 4 food in and 2 consumed.

So food goes into the food box and once you get enough the town grows. The next citizen is put to work on a tile and on and on. Your job is to determine what is needed for grwoth as well as building things like troops, workers, settlers and structures and balance those needs.

The top priority is to expand. This mean settlers, but how best to to do that? Well in fact workers are required to do it well. Workers cost you a pop as well as shields. So you cannot just endless make them and they have to be supported for maint.

Eventually you fill the free open land and have to consider what next. To me that means taking land from the neighbors. The sooner you plan for that the better it goes. Looking at the empire in 1665AD that I posted, you see having all that land as made it so your empire is able to make workers, settlers and troops too fast for the others to do anything about.

It also means faster research. Where to expand is another key chocie you have to make. I prefer to expand in a close empire and not to have gaps. It is not a requirement for a semi peaceful game, but is for a war game.

Now where to expand is not much of an issue as I am only going to plant a town CxxC away from one of my current towns, terrain permitting. I am not going to slap down a town to get some lux or resource as that will be mine in due course anyway and I do not want to exose my empire to get it in nearly all cases.

The rest of it is timing and that comes form experience.

 

[vmxa]

http://www.civfanatics.com/content/civ3/strategy/cracker/civ3_starts/index.htm

Crackers opening moves very useful.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Meant to post this ... six hours ago? But the weather was being uncooperative, then I got to go shovel snow

I am still with it but have taken a detour. I am playing CivI:
1) to just own the very first game - that's cool to me, hec, it was $12.95! (I also own CivII now. I want to track the dev of the game... for no reason. )

One of the truly fun things that they removed in 3 was the option to bribe someone to go to war with someone else. Why is this awesome? Because (in Civ2, at least) you don't need to be at war with the third civ. You can just pay people to fight each other! I also miss the generic "demand tribute" option.

2) to discover the most fundamental secret of the game - HOW TO CONTROL a city's growth!

I thought I would learn how to play by playing the max number of enemy. In fact I have learned alot from this forum - this thread in particular and all you repliers. But the 'growth' thing still eludes me. (And playing CivI only made me realize that I haven't learned it for CivIII yet.)

But never mind CivI - the 'growth' issue is valid on all levels throughout the CivUniverse. Why hasn't any one written a "How to ..." for the fundamentals? I know resources are important - I know my city needs to EXPAND, RESEARCH, and GROW - d'-freakin'-uh!, but no where is the "how to" skill for GROWTH mentioned!

EXPAND: make a settler, move him to a cozy spot, build city. Roads and irrigation follow.
RESEARCH: spend money to develop a new technology. New units follow.
GROWTH: (sound of crickets in the forest)

What do you mean about controlling growth? I take it you don't mean Settler Factories, so the only thing I can think you'd be interested in is managing the growth so that city size doesn't outstrip your ability to keep them happy (or at least content, on the whole), which varies based on your government, economy, and local resources (luxuries) - and the amount of food available, of course.

Click on a square in the City Display... it changes - ooooo - pretty... so what?? Change an entertainer to a taxman - oooo - pretty ... so what?? How does this affect my income? Is my city now richer? ...poorer? ...happier??? sadder!?!? Will King Kong move to New York and find true love?? Is Elvis living in Japan???

Removing a citizen from Work turns him into an Entertainer (for the purposes of this example, let's assume the citizen is working a Roaded River BG in Republic, giving him 2 FpT, 1 SpT, and 2 CpT). You lose everything from the tile, but the Entertainer creates happiness, so a Content Citizen may become Happy, or a Dissident Citizen may become Content. If there are too many Unhappiness boosts (Remembered Whips, War, Cultural Dissonance, too large a City, War Weariness), it's possible that a single Entertainer won't have any noticable effect (or if everyone is Happy already).

If you change the Entertainer to a Taxman, you lose the Luxury bonus from the Entertainer and get 2 GpT - note that this is not Commerce per Turn like a Working Citizen, it's straight Gold per Turn that gets added directly to your treasury. It is not affected by multiplier buildings (Marketplaces, Banks, etc), but neither is it affected by Corruption. Likewise, if you change the Taxman to a Scientist, you lose the gpt but gain 3 Beakers per Turn. If a city is corrupt, or it lacks multiplier buildings, a Taxman or Scientist can usually grant you more gpt/Beakers than the city would with Working Citizens.

Even in CivI my Financial Adviser keeps pestering me about "YOUR BROKE YOU MORON!!!" (paraphrased : )

Almost didn't see that you were talking about Civ 1 there. I haven't played it in ... a decade? ... but I didn't think you got warnings until you were below 25 gold.

This lack of understanding is what is holding me back. If I can actually control - in detail - my City's growth, then I think I can start owning the AI on the Chieftain level and move on to more challenging games and levels.

Manipulate the Irrigation and Mining of the city. The general rule in Despotism is Mine Green and Irrigate Brown, because Irrigating a Grasslands won't do anything due to the Despotism Penalty.

 

[vmxa]

Can't remeber Civ1 and even tough I though civ2 was best game ever for years, it is not worth a nickel after C3C and I have not played it after civ3 came out. Too many serious play issues.

 

[vmxa]

Since you may still be playing this one I slip this into spoiler tags as there is some info that is new. I messed up the pix, so skip them, unless you want tosee the spoilers.

Spoiler :

1695AD:
DOW Smoke last turn and raze a town and captured Lazapa. Wasting resources to get out settlers to try to clean up the hodge podge of towns in the jungle and close the gaps. I do not want to encourage anyone to sending a settler. This should not be an issue as hopefully no one has a map for the land, but I cannot be sure.

Got a second leader froma knight way down at Coba and formed an army.

1710AD:
Capture town, more names that are nuts. WET, why oh why would you want extra jungles?

1715AD:
Start on Mag and switch MA to Newtons.

1725AD:
Razed itza and copan.

1735AD:
capture Palenque. Been dropping towns down to fill in the front and backfill. Got a third leader, so will switch PRE to Pentagon next turn. Mag will come in on IBT and we will be in the IA.

1740AD:
Start on Steam and can only hope that 50,000 tiles of jungle holds at least one coal.

1750AD:
autoraze some town. Got a 4th leader and form an army.

1752AD:
Capture Yaxchilan.

1754AD:
capture Bonampak and its salt.

1756AD:
With the founding of New Las Vegas the jungle area is about as fixed as it is going to get. Two gaps, but they are far inland and no one is going to get to them.

1758AD:
Grab Calakmul the last coastal town on the west side.

1760AD:
Capture Tikal. We have 2 coal tiles connected and a third had 20 workers on it that were set to clear jungles. So we will have a 3rd coal next turn as the jungle was chopped. Start rails. Found another town. Persia and Dutch send settler combos out. Look to be heading for the same spot, but I have a settler that will be in place next turn.

Started on Electrity to race for RP. Sped up workers are great coming right after Steam. Infantry and Artillery with rails, means I cannot be faded.

1762AD:
I had forgot to mention that we got wines a ways back for 7 lux. Starting slowly to get a few universities up. Have PRE for ToE underway. Now that I am working on the rails, I hope I will soon be able to send a future leader back to rush the MA.

1764AD:
capture Quirigua and found 2 towns.

1768AD:
grab Uaxactun. I see 2 more town and maybe a third in the fog.

1776AD:
Captured the last two towns and Smoke is eliminated. Started RP. Rails to the the SE end and southern end. Near to the northern coastal end. Going to take a few turns to get the new front connected, before talking to the next victum. Also would like Infantry, so I will now finally do the fulll MM.

1780AD:
I just checked and I now have more unit support than I have units.

1788AD:
Start on Medicine in 4 turns. See no rubber in this entire empire. None shows as not connected. That chooses the next target as Xerk has rubber by Bactra and it is 2 tiles from the Motor City. I just need to connect one town next turn and all the armies will be on the rails. In fact all corners are going to be done next turn. Just need to add in some interior towns.

Got to love Industrial workers with RP, they can rail a tile with two workers.

1790AD:
Decide to upgrade some units to guerilla and my cannons to artie, not many anyway.

1792AD:
The double edge sword strikes as I razed the two towns CxC from me. Captured Arebela and put 2 armies next to Sidon.

They have done the usual real crappy job of tile improving. No road next to Bactra so I will need two turns to get a road on the rubber. Trees at least a dozen tiles around the capitol in a 3 tile radius. Nearly 6000 years can't chop a few trees.

I think I have all towns on the grid now, except Arebela.

1794AD:
Xerk was sitting on at least 17 crusaders as they are on the border or in it. Why not bash Japan with them and get some land? Well it is Chief, so he sends them to their death now.

Killed them, but no leader.

1796AD:
capture Persep and the KT. I should mention CE and Police I guess. You can use civil engineers to get uncorrupted shields, if you are building structures. This is very useful for getting that aqua up faster or market. Those are the only structures I use them on for the most part.

If you have a city that you want to make some troops or artillery, but it is say 50% corrupt, you can use Police to gain a shield or two. In most game I do not use Police as I do not need to make troops in corrupt towns. I mean those with 50% plus corruption.

Started on Sci Meth in 4 turns.

1800AD:
I spot furs and will soon add the last lux.

1794AD_Xerk.jpg
1800AD_Pasarg.jpg

 

[vmxa]

Spoiler Final look :

1802AD:
captured Sardis.

1804AD:
capture Ergili and make peace as their towns are not near me. They give up PP and Music, so I switched a uni to Bach. Researching Ind as I have 4 turns on it and 4 turns on ToE.

1812AD:
Sweet as can be, ToE pops in as we learn Industry and we select AT and Electronics. Start on Corp in 4 turns. Switch to a factory in Seattle and finish it. Will then start on Sufferage in Boston after its factory. MA done next turn and we will pop up a factory. Seattle may get a hydro plant and then start on Hoover as we have few places with a
river.

1816AD:
DOW Japan and capture Tokyo and Kogoshima.

1818AD:
knight gets a leader on an AC and we form 5th.
Capture Osaka, it only had 1 sami.

1820AD:
Small hats off to Japan as they sent 14 AC to Osaka and beat the 3 armies into the red zone. At least they tried. Again with those AC and the 7/8 I killed, plus Sami's, they should have taken some land from someone. Instead they sit on the units and I kill them.

Start on Refine.

1822AD:
4 armies take Kyoto and Sun Tzu. Not going to save much money, but will be very nice to have an insta rax in new towns.

1826AD:
Hiawatha lost his mind and demanded wine and declared, when refused.
capture Izumo.

1830AD:
start on Steel in 4 turns, Refine took 5.
capture Nara.

1832AD:
captured Shimonoseki and Edo. May be OCC now.

1834AD:
Capture Nagoya and see none of the Japanese towns, so I make peace.
got 6th leader form army.

1836AD:
got 7th leader and fill army number 7.
capture three Iroq towns and now have cut the land in half.
I traded maps around with those that have the knowledge to trade. It lets them possibly try to run settlers in, but I wanted to know the world to find the missing towns from former enemies. I can block settlers, if needed.

1838AD:
got 8th leader. Captured two more towns.

Start on combustion this turn or last not sure.

1842AD:
capture Allengheny.

1846AD:
Hoovers kicks off the GA. Flight in 4.
Grab two more towns. This is just so weak, none of them have Mag, ToG or MT.

1848AD:
MA makes an army and next one in 5 turns. Capture another town. Slow going as they have hills and mountains and lots of tiles with no road. We could speed thigns by bringiing along wokrers to make roads and settlers to fill holes. No rush though.

1852AD:
Lost track, think I have two more towns captured. Got a leader and fill 10th. Hiawatha is pinned in two corners. One has two towns I can see and the other has two I can see and at least one I cannot. Flight on the IBT.

1854AD:
Start Mass Prod and lower research for a 4 turner. Not even bothered to MM as we are doing 4 turners anyway. Captured the two tundra towns next to the Dutch, but found they have another behind the Dutch. Will clear the eastern towns and then turn to the Dutch and the last Iroq town I hope at that point. I have 151 towns and the next closest is 26.

1856AD:
Tonawa in the bank.

1858AD:
Captured 4 towns and only one in the corner and one in Dutch area left AFAIK. 11th came out of the MA.

1860AD:
Got it so we have a corridor from north to south, cutting the land in half and only the Dutch behind us and the lone Iroq town.

1862AD:
Start on Motor in 4 at 50%. Should start war next turn.

1864AD:
DOW Dutch and take 5 towns.

1866AD:
capture two more towns.

1870AD:
Start on Computers. Take out the last town for Hiawatha and he is gone.
Grab a couple more towns.

1872AD:
Grab 3 or 4 towns and Dutch are confined to the coast now.

1874AD:
Two more and they are down to 6 towns.

1876AD:
Grab 3 more.

1878AD:
Start Rocket in 4. Switch army to Seti.
Take the three towns and eliminte the Dutch.
Upgrade Infantry, excpet a few not in towns.

1886AD:
GA ends and I MM to drop the research down. Need more workers, but not going to make them, don't want the work. Still lots of places would be farms, if I got workers to them. I could do it with the ones I have, but I would have to spend lots of time locating the towns that need the work.

Time to hit the nearest nation. I am researching Ecology now. Upgrade guerilla to TOW. BTW Iroq is still #3 and the Dutch #4, so how bad are the others? Henry is #2.

1890AD:
Have 5 towns, one has Smith's though I have no banks.

1894AD:
Took all, but 2 towns. I made peace for 1 town and left them OCC as I cannot reach them. Started on Fibers. Have the pop at 64%, but only 44% of the land.

1900AD:
Henry demans Salt and when I say no, he declares. He does not have MT and is still in the Middle Ages, while I have tanks. Good news for me is happiness boost, but I cannot bother to make a fleet to invade. In fact I am going to DOW Mao this turn.
Took 11 towns from Mao. Now have 66% pop and 47% land.

1904AD:
China down to one town and it is surrounded. Working on Miniture. Fill 14th with Modern Armor.

Going to hit Japan next turn as they have two towns next to my new holdings, so may as well remove them form the game.

1910AD:
Japan is gone. I had to wait another turn to start the war and the land is mountains.
Miniture will come in and then I can switch the palace to Internet and get free labs. I don't care about the research, but the culture should help get to the Domination limit. At 50% now. I really want to take out Xerk, but I have to run through Shakas land.

1914AD:
DOW Spain and take 5 or 6 towns. I think that pushes them back enough that the Conqs will not be able to reach any workers stacks.

1916AD:
Grab 4 or 5 more and they are down to 4 towns. One is on an island.

1918AD:
Eliminate Mongols. Spain off the mainland now.

1920AD:
Here is what I hate about the Internet. I just had every town get a border pop and now I will have to go around and reset the scientist. It did bump me up to 60% of the land. If I attack Shaka I would end it in a turn or two. I am going to drop in on Henry instead. I short rushed a couple of transport that will soon be on station.

I will send over a few armies and raze the last Spanish town and then ferry over more amries to run over Henry. I am moving some settlers into place to fill out the old Spanish lands.

Researching Genentics. Started the two new wonders, never going to finish them though. I had sold their factories. Only two cities stilll have a factories. They are making armies and MA units.

1928AD:
Eliminated Spain and grab one of Henry's towns. Dropped 15 or 16 armies on the island. At 64% now. 7 nations left, Persia really just a shell with 3 towns not near each other. Should not be any more wars on the mainland as we do not need the land.

1934AD:
Have 6 of Henry's towns and finally run into some roads. 65% so maybe next turn. Working on Recycle. Switch the factory towns to wonders, no matter not going to finish anyway.

1936AD:
Two more towns, still not there yet.

1942AD:
Finally got enough land to win.

 

[LivingDog]

What do you mean about controlling growth? I take it you don't mean Settler Factories, ...

me: no, I meant the tiles and how do I know what changes I make by clicking on them. I know about the three R's: Resources, Research, and gRowth. What I don't have a clue about is the affect that clicking on a tile has. I know the factors in a city change around when I click on a tile. E.g. a citizen becomes a monkey making everyone smile stupidly... BUT, how did that change affect my city's economy? Am I losing money significantly or not?

Removing a citizen from Work turns him into an Entertainer (for the purposes of this example, let's assume the citizen is working a Roaded River BG in Republic, giving him 2 FpT, 1 SpT, and 2 CpT).

me: can I see these numbers on a display somewhere? I need to see the Excel spreadsheet for the city. I know about the trade-offs of making entertainers, but when you say "... Roaded River BG in Republic, giving him 2 FpT, 1 SpT, and 2 CpT ..." how can I see them 1) on that road, 2) by that river, 3) gaining 2F/1S/2C pT?? All I see is that if I click on a square - stuff changes. Is it better or for worse?

If you change the Entertainer to a Taxman, you lose the Luxury bonus from the Entertainer and get 2 GpT -

me: I see. It's those colored lights that hypnotize, sparkle someone else' eyes now woman!... oh sorry, I was channeling The Guess Who.

• yellow is gold represents immediate wealth
• amber is bails of hay and represent food
• blue is shields and represent production,
• red is amount of corruption

So how do I add them all up? Does 2 corruption = -1 gold ? Does 3 red get canceled by a Courthouse? Is there a separate display for this calculation?

Almost didn't see that you were talking about Civ 1 there.

me: I'm not. That was mentioned only to show what a major butt-head I am... I do play it, but am not able to figure out the same thing there as well - namely: how clicking a tile affects my income. So it doesn't matter which game... if I click a tile, how can I tell how, and by how much, my net income has changed?

BTW, does 1 citizen work 1 tile? Then what if the city is size 6 with hundreds of thousands of citizens... are they all working the 9 tiles? And what about the tiles outside the 9?

 

[vmxa]

Yes 1 citizen works one tile. The citizen represent a number of pop, we just ignore that. You can only work tiles in your radius. With no culture that is 9 tiles. With border expansion, you can have up to 21 tiles.
After that they citizens have no tile to work.

Looking at the city view you can count the gold or shields or food on all tiles work, includes city center. If you change a citizen, you can see the food/shields/gold change to reflect the change.

 

[vmxa]

Here is a screen from a Sid game some time back. I cannot recall, if this was from me investigating the town or an emabssy. I kept it as it shows how inept they are.

Anyway, it is size 7. It has the palace as it is Mecca. It has the Oracle, temple and a granary.

3 content citizens and 4 jokers. 3 citizen are working BG tiles with irrigation and a road. One is on a river. So they get 3 food, 1 shield and 2 gold, except the river. It gets 3 gold.

You can count the food/shields/gold and get 11 food as the city center gets 2f1s5g. 4 shields, 1 from each tile worked and we count the free CC. No corruption as it is the capitol. 14 gold. What you say, 2+2+3+5 does not equal 14.

True, but notice the Oracle is given 2 gold. Neo and friends keep visiting her and paying the 2 gold I guess. Now you can look at the info below and see that yup 4 shields are shown. 11 food and 14 commerce.

If you should say move the citizen from the river BG to a river tile with a road and just grass, you would see the shields as 0 for that tile and the count would drop to 3. Change pop around and it will be reflected here in view and in the info area.

If this was not the capitol, we could have seen some corruption. This may be reflected in shields and commerce break down. The slider will also impact the commerce break down as increases to the science slider would divert some gold form one area to the beakers count and so on.

 

[vmxa]

Bonus question is how can you tell this is likely a Sid game from the city view?

Spoiler :

Look at the food box and see the amount needed to grow. Look at the shield box and see it is 12 shields, rather than 30. They have a cost factor of 4, so they pay 4 for every 10 you pay.

 

[GamezRule]

I did not know that level changes affected the food box.

 

[vmxa]

Yup growth, shields and research are impacted by the level.