Chinese and Korean History

[ZultanofZex]

I want to know about chinese history. Reading about is at the moment...

give me links, suggested reading (English) or just tell me! Also very interested in Korean history especially the japanese invasion in the 1500's.

 

[KoRnEa]

wow.. both china and korea have huge history.. would be hard to keep them in same thread

japanese invasion in 1500's:
Korea has experienced peace for 200 years, and the military isn't very strong.
Japan on the other hand, has just unified under Hideyoshi.
Battle-hardened samurai forces launch attack on korea in 1592. a total of about 20000 troops take part in the invasion, and within 60 days, japan has almost completed the conquest.
however, the tide begins to turn as Yi sun shin takes control of korean navy and defeats japanese navy everywhere, militia forces rise up and actually do better against the japanese than how the korean army did, and assistance of Ming arrives.
Yi sun shin, greatest admiral in history, was also a philosopher, inventor, etc, and he invented turtleships, which are the first ironclad ships, and they were comparable to ironclads of american civil war. admiral Yi takes most of the credit for defeating the japanese, but unfortunately, he died during the last battle on the seas of the war.

 

[KoRnEa]

Korea

Ancient Choson - 2333 b.c. ~ 108 b.c.
The first Korean state, based in northern parts of the Korean Peninsula, held east coast of modern China to parts of manchuria, Standing armies, not peasant levies.. not much known otherwise..
horses, chariots, spears, arrows, and daggers
map

Koguryo - 37 b.c. ~ 668 a.d.
stretching from northern peninsula to manchuria, strong, horse-riding warriors(for 70 years, 598-668, Koguryo had defeated a couple million Chinese. in the year around 600 - but became weaker because of constant wars, then division of power brought fall of koguryo).

right from the start, Koguryo accepted horses, and Koguryo grew in the midst of conflicts so koguryo was militaristic and very strong.

4th century and before-
arrows from far, then cavalries flank from both sides and infantry charge straight ahead

5th century and after-
heavy cavalry with iron armour on both rider and horse, carrying 3-3.5 meters long lance, with supporting weapons of a short sword at 80cm max and a bow about 1m long.. the bow is called Meckgung and it was truly a powerful weapon. add the koguryo horse skills which can match even the horse nomads' skills and you've got a strong army

and also-
strong navy that controls the yellow sea and the east sea



Baekje - 18 b.c. ~ 660 a.d.
held south-west of the peninsula, skilled craftsmen, brought culture into near-barbaric Japan (japan called baekje "kudara" or "big country, master country")
Baekje's visual arts revealed technical maturity and warm human qualities.
also had naval strength
map of greatest extent of Baekje(solid lines mean expansion, dotted means trade.. not shown on map: colonies to the south which included japan, taiwan, philipines, miyanmar, thailand, bruneo etc)

Kaya - ~ 562 a.d.
I heavily doubt any chance of a civ modelled after kaya, but just included it here to inform that this is what the japanese claim to be japanese colonies that they were trying to regain in early 1900's.
Kaya was NOT a japanese colony, and in fact dominated the trade between Kaya and Japan.
kaya was conquered by Silla.
the kaya people invented a unique 12-stringed zither called kayakum

Silla - 57 b.c. ~ 935 a.d.
Unified Korea with the help of Tang China.
built many buddhist buildings, towers etc. its capital, the modern city of kyung-ju, is just wonderful.
had an elite group of young warriors called Hwarang, following the military and philosophy of Hwarangdo - loyalty to the king, filial piety, faithfulness to friends, courage in battle, and the evil of indiscriminate killing (Sesok-ogye) + 4 unique Silla ideads: 1. service to country and will to die for your friend 2. respect for justice and fight to the death against unjust forces 3. avoiding death in bed sick, rather death while fighting for the country 4. no retreating in battle, suicide rather than capture
map of silla's greatest extent before unification

Parhe - 698 ~ 926
Koguryo people displaced into China unites and forms Parhe. with great military tradition of Koguryo, expands its borders into Siberia, Manchuria, China.

strong navy.. Jang Mun Hyu even leads an assault into Tang's biggest northern port + fort city and captures the castle.. Chinese records Jang as a leader of pirates, but he was a Parhe general
map - Parhe cities

Koryo - 918 ~ 1392
the name koryo comes from koguryo, as you may have guessed.
not very militaristic, but when Mongols invaded, put up a war for over 40 years, and created the tripikata koreana, greatest achievement in buddhist history of the world.
flowering of arts, particularly ceramics(Koryo celadon). active international trade, and the english name "Korea"(supposed to be Corea, but the japanese turned the C into K during occupation to be ahead alphabetically.. in french, italian, spanish, portuguese, etc, C is still used) comes from Koryo

Koryo people were good at the martial arts, even the women. some of these were incorporated into game or sports like Schirum(Korean sumo.. though i don't like this expression..) and Tekken.. Okinawa of Japan was a tributary to Koryo, and they learned Koryo Subak, took it to their land, and created Karate.. one of many examples of japanese martial arts that are rooted in korea(more examples: kendo, judo, iaido etc..)

Koryo was first in the world to use gunpowder in weapons(or in battle.. i'm not sure which one)

Choson - 1392 ~ 1910
this is where you have your Shinkijon Hwacha and Turtle Ships
*in 1897, it was renamed to the Korean Empire, but that was just a name and a form of struggle to keep independence.
*Shinkijon = 1400's, rocket launcher, upgraded from earlier rocket launcher JuHwa. had a range of 1000m - this is not a typo.. yes the shinkijon did fire rockets 10 times the range of trebuchets, 2-3 times the range of catapults.. can be set to explode upon contact, explode in air and send out smaller warheads MIRV-style, etc.
*Hwacha = cart carrying up to 100 shinkijon, can fire one after another very quickly
*Turtle Ships = first ironclads in the world, comparable to ironclads in american civil war. more info in turtle ships are available in history forum if you do a search

and then there's japanese occupation, then Korean war.. then RoK and DPRK..


you won't find a lot of reliable sources for korean history.
chinese sources have that attitude of china looking down on everyone, sources from koryo and choson have this ideology of whatever is chinese is cool, and most of western sources hold distorted japanese version of korean history invented during occupation(invented, that's right), and ancient korean records were destroyed by japan during occupation.
why?

First, make it so Choson people do not know of thier work, history, and tradition so they lose the national spirit and culture. Find records of their ancestor's idleness, incompetence, and wrongdoings, exaggerate them, and teach it to the children of choson so it's youth feels contempt and disregard for their ancestors and set it as the morale, therefore choson youths will receive negative knowledge of their nation's individuals and achievements and they will feel disappointment and futility. then introduce to them japanese records, japanese individuals, japanese culture, and there will be immense effect of assimilation. This is the key for the japanese empire to turn choson people into semi-japanese.

 

[ZultanofZex]

Thank you! Great reading!

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Well, your looking for the Ming Dynasty then, let's see....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=ming+dynasty

That is pages of Ming dynasty sites, enjoy.

 

[ZultanofZex]

Cheers!

Anyone know any books? I am currently reading the harvard History of China, 900 - present day, and I've read the excelente History of China by Alf Henriksson, I think he is translated into English, look him up.

(I have no idea what to use the Egypt smilie for, but just pretend he is a china man!)

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by KoRnEa
Ancient Choson - 2333 b.c. ~ 108 b.c.
The first Korean state, based in northern parts of the Korean Peninsula, held east coast of modern China to parts of manchuria, Standing armies, not peasant levies.. not much known otherwise..
horses, chariots, spears, arrows, and daggers
map[/B]

Not to burst your bubble, but I find this extremely hard to swallow. This map of Choson's apparent domain is simply unrealistic. I don't believe I have ever read of anything regarding Ancient Choson covering such a vast domain and actually reaching into the ancient Chinese heartland. Nor of written records or archaelogical remnants to corrobate your claims.

I've done a bit of digging on early Korean history, and the earliest written reference to a Korean state was in 194 BC, when rebels against the Han emperor who were defeated were reported to have fled across the border into Choson. One of them (forgot name) took power and cultivated the Koreans in his administration, setting up a short dynasty. Ancient Choson only covered a part of North Korea.

Then in 108 BC, Chinese armies came and conquered Ancient Choson. The core of the kingdom was incorporated into the Lolang commandery, which survived the Later Han dynasty by a while. After which, it still remained as an important center of Chinese influence, and a transmitter of it into Korea.

Add : I think I'm going to read up more on Korean history, fr a more neutral English-language source. The short account above sounds too jingoistic to me, and completely avoids all the Korean problems and bad stuff.

 

[KoRnEa]

the "east coast of modern china" is before Ancient Choson lost it to China. (i think it was Yan?) the map there doesn't reach that much into china.

rebels against the Han emperor who were defeated were reported to have fled across the border into Choson. One of them (forgot name) took power and cultivated the Koreans in his administration, setting up a short dynasty. Ancient Choson only covered a part of North Korea.

Wiman may have been a yan man or a choson man. He dressed and lived the choson way, but lived in yan area. He fled to choson during the time when no guan fled to xiong nu lands and han army took over yan area and confusion occured. he ruled Wiman Choson, which is not the same thing as Ancient Choson.. Wiman Choson only covered a small area from Liaodong to northwestern korea.

Then in 108 BC, Chinese armies came and conquered Ancient Choson. The core of the kingdom was incorporated into the Lolang commandery, which survived the Later Han dynasty by a while. After which, it still remained as an important center of Chinese influence, and a transmitter of it into Korea.

Han set up 4 commandaries around Liaodong and northwestern korea. Lolang survived a few centuries, other 3 not very long. Ancient Choson disintegrated, to likes of Buyo, Okjuh, Choi Nakrang, Yeh, 3 Han etc.. after few centuries, these were all conquered into Koguryo, Baekje, and Silla by 562.

i'm not sure about that chinese influence thing. Lolang was taken over by Koguryo, and Koguryo was more true to its Buyo roots, other than accepting Buddhism from china.. Silla was a little more into china, and Koryo, and Choson(Yi's) were you know, "woo! china!"

The short account above sounds too jingoistic to me, and completely avoids all the Korean problems and bad stuff.

you want some bad stuff?

Fall of Baekje came from Silla-Tang alliance, and Silla had 50000, Tang help was 130000.

Fall of Koguryo came from internal problems. Koguryo was already weakened from 70 years of fighting against Sui and Tang invasions totalling couple million men(in 70 years, not on any one occasion). Yungaesomun was in power in koguryo, but after his death, there was a power struggle between his 3 sons and his brother. Namseng fleed to Kuknae, a former capital city of koguryo, and asked for Tang assistance. Yunjungto took 12 castles and surrendered to Silla. turks and malgal, originally under Koguryo, had subjugated to Tang, and Tang and Silla attacked Koguryo. Tang forces led by Lee attacked from west across Liaoong, Silla attacked from south, and they met at Pyungyang, capital of Koguryo. after 1 year long siege of pyungyang, koguryo fell.

in 1637, Choson subjected to Qing and became a vassal state, and from then on it did not recover, and then it switched over to go under japanese sphere of influence, then it was annexed by japan in 1910.

during occupation, japan tried everything they could to assimilate koreans into japan, including destroying ancient historical records, renaming people to japanese names, etc etc.
the bad thing is this. while on one side there was the independence army based in manchuria and martyrs and freedom fighters in korea and japan, there were koreans who accepted japan, and persecuted fellow koreans who refused japan. these chin-il-pa (pro-japan side) even went on to create a chant that koreans were forced to repeat while bowing their heads in the direction of the palace in japan, the HwangGukSinMinSuhSa, stating that koreans were good and loyal to japan etc. and this is just one of the things that chin-il-pa did.

oh yeah, there was also the chil-ru-pa, which is the pro-russia-side. they were gone after japan won the Russo-Japanese war.

the presidents of Korea so far have all been waste of the time taken to vote for them. they were all either dictators or related to crimes in one way or another.

in north korea, there lives a maniac who is deputy to his late father who is the head of state. yup, Kim Il Sung is still the head of state of N.K. even after his death, and Kim Jong Il is his deputy. This maniac named Kim Jong Il eats cheese imported from Europe and pours $$$ into his 1.2 million strong military, while 2 million people have starved to death.

there's some bad things.. would you like more?
it was just that you don't usually look for the bad stuff when you look at basic general history..

i mean, i wouldn't go looking for all the bad stuff china did for the heck of it, and i'm more interested in the glorious ancient egypt rather than history of egypt 300 b.c. and later.. etc..

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by KoRnEa
there's some bad things.. would you like more?
it was just that you don't usually look for the bad stuff when you look at basic general history..

i mean, i wouldn't go looking for all the bad stuff china did for the heck of it, and i'm more interested in the glorious ancient egypt rather than history of egypt 300 b.c. and later.. etc.. [/B]

The point of studying (for me at least) history is to learn and not to repeat history's mistakes. I'm well-aware of much of China's fallings, crisises and disasters, as well as with its more glorious moments, as well as of that of many other nations and peoples. I guess that's the difference betw you and me - I'd read all the facts/arguments/theories and look at the whole picture.

 

[KoRnEa]

you're right. i need to learn that i need to build up my military so stuff like the japanese invasion or subjecting to Qing won't happen to me..

really, if i was studying history to learn the mistakes, i think more valuable lessons would come from modern history.. and you'll notice i haven't put up modern koreas up there.. if i did, i'd have put up both the good and bad things, but that would have taken much much longer than the time it took for the list up there..

ancient and medieval, to me, is more interesting stuff than lessons to be learned (yes, there are some lessons too)

 

[Nobunagatenno]

post on the wrong thread
sorry

 

[Nobunagatenno]

china has a very long history.
which section are you focusing on?

 

[mountedantman]

Hey Koreana forgot to mention these korean highlights.

Worlds First standardized rain gauge was invented by Sejong's administration in Chosun in 1400s to improve agriculture. (http://inventors.about.com/od/rstartinventions/a/Rain_Gauge.htm)

Koryo invented rocket artillery Hwacha in 1377.
Koryo also first invented the metal movable type 200 yrs before gutenburg press in 1234 AD.

Baekje definitely conquered Shandong Penninsula and Liaoxi and Jinping in 300-400 AD. you know when there was Xianbei and Northern Wei dynasty. Thus Greatest extent of Baekje included colonies in Japan, East China coast, phillipines, taiwan, indonesia, and there are more areas south with baekje inluence and culture but those are subject for more reasearch.
Bakeje= much like Portugal, Phoenicians, the Dutch with their seafaring and commercial traits.

Baekje basically had Japan as a province. It introduced advanced culture and sciences and sent princes of Baekje to different parts of Japan to become governors and to collect taxes, raise army, etc to help out the mainland Baekje.

Many people neglect Kaya but Kaya was like Baekje in being seafaring. Kaya had a seaborne empire including Okinawa, huko-oh-ka, ku ma mo to, sa ka, sa ma ne, ye he me, osaka, wakayama islands/regions including japanese islands. (some of those islands are pronounced in korean, and i have no idea how they are spelled in japanese).
Kaya also had one of the most advanced iron technologies and made almost like steel weapons and farm equipment by adding coal or carbon in iron smelting.
Kaya exported huge amounts of iron to japanese archipolgo and china and korean kingdoms.

Regarding Ancient Chosun. Part of reason Emperor of Jin burned the books famously was to get rid of evidence of Old Chosun having been an overlord over much of CHina.

Scientists.Archeologists are uncovering truth that Old Chosun was in fact an empire that was nearly 10,000 years old.


Chang Bo Go, trade emperor of unified Silla once had a monopoly in east asian trade regarding phillipines, japan, silla, tang china, indonesia, mideast, etc.
Featured in "Emperor of the Sea" historical drama that is widely popular in even turkey and Iran.

Even from the times of Koguryeo, children from even farmers usually went to school and learned how to write and shoot the bow as basics. Literacy

BTW much of Asian relics and texts not survived from the BC ages cause asians wrote on wood, not stone like in middle east and egypt.

Just filling in some holes.

 

[mountedantman]

BTW im in the process of making a scenario called Kingdoms of Korea (350AD) Featuring many of this stuff with new techs, unique units, etc. Expect much!

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Pls do not post in ancient threads, thank you.

Closed.