Chinese players share wisdom

The essence of the 'Catapult Rush' is to maximize population growth within 100 turns, using Village economies to research Horseback Riding or Aesthetics, trade for Alphabet and Mathematics, and then rush Construction.
You research horseback riding to trade for alphabet! I have not heard of this one before. This explains why you build stables.

Do you get a great scientist? If yes, then what do you do with it?
 
OK,Here are the videos from my live streams of the 'Horse Archer Rush'

and the 'Catapult Rush.'

Oh, and by the way, my Bilibili avatar is Mr. Satan from Dragon Ball:mischief:
Oops, I totally missed this post! Thanks!
 
You research horseback riding to trade for alphabet! I have not heard of this one before. This explains why you build stables.

Do you get a great scientist? If yes, then what do you do with it?
That’s a great question. On Deity difficulty, our community’s system usually revolves around joining the fight as early as possible. If we have access to Horses or Elephants, we tend to research Horseback Riding to enter the Classical Era, then use some beakers to trade for Alphabet. In rarer cases, we’ll use Aesthetics to enter the Classical Era and trade for techs. These two techs are less prioritized by the AI, and once they acquire them from us, they guard them closely—which is exactly what we want.

Regarding the first Great Scientist: in a favorable game, we’ll research Code of Laws and use the Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy. Note: We’re not using Philosophy to maintain a tech lead; it’s just a bargaining chip. In a favorable game, we can trade it for Feudalism, Machinery, or even Civil Service, or use it as a reward to get the AI to join a war. In a tough game, if we can’t afford to research Feudalism on the war front, Philosophy can help us trade for it and vassalize enemies. In a very bad development situation or an early-game melee war, we’ll rush to generate a Great Scientist to bulb Compass. It’s a valuable bargaining chip that can be traded for many useful techs, especially Currency, to ensure our expansion and war efforts don’t collapse the economy.
 
East and West are in agreement on who's the worst leader.

EDIT for @bigbamboo

In this community, "curaissier" is the most common strategy for "Pangaea" maps. I use it less often than others in this community, but it is an important strategy to know. There are no complete written guides and video resource access can be limited in some countries. Most videos do not explain the theory, they just demonstrate it.

"Lain" is one of the best players in this community. He stopped playing several years ago, this is one of this last games. This is a difficult map but he played many maps even more difficult. For this map, early warfare is impossible because all the players are too strong.
Spoiler :

1740618556175.png



Here are the video links, if you can access it somehow
Spoiler :

1
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=pQGfkt8HBuo

2
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=hLhZwv6avfA

3
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=Q3C_WgsgUxk

4
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=Z7g-qKeAJn0

5
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=y6cOFcSLEus

6
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=5PyNc2WFXhg

7
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=gVaQTEeFmrc

8
https://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=DiBJJKadZuc


If you are interested, you can search this forum for other resources.
 
Last edited:
East and West are in agreement on who's the worst leader.

EDIT for @bigbamboo

In this community, "curaissier" is the most common strategy for "Pangaea" maps. I use it less often than others in this community, but it is an important strategy to know. There are no complete written guides and video resource access can be limited in some countries. Most videos do not explain the theory, they just demonstrate it.

"Lain" is one of the best players in this community. He stopped playing several years ago, this is one of this last games. This is a difficult map but he played many maps even more difficult. For this map, early warfare is impossible because all the players are too strong.
This map has a lot of rivers and Horses, so we’ll use the Horse Archer Rush strategy. If the starting Gems aren’t in jungle tiles, the map becomes much easier. I checked YouTube, but the link is no longer available. Thanks for sharing!

Okay, I’ve got those videos and the map. I’ll find some time to play it here and can share a report or video. By the way, how do you save the initial save file with World Builder (WB) while preventing the map creator from spoiling it? Is there a tool for that?
 
Last edited:
This map has a lot of rivers and Horses, so we’ll use the Horse Archer Rush strategy. If the starting Gems aren’t in jungle tiles, the map becomes much easier. I checked YouTube, but the link is no longer available. Thanks for sharing!

Okay, I’ve got those videos and the map. I’ll find some time to play it here and can share a report or video. By the way, how do you save the initial save file with World Builder (WB) while preventing the map creator from spoiling it? Is there a tool for that?

You can zoom in maximum before opening world builder and just don't look at the mini-map. You can save file as world builder file from there.
 
This map has a lot of rivers and Horses, so we’ll use the Horse Archer Rush strategy. If the starting Gems aren’t in jungle tiles, the map becomes much easier. I checked YouTube, but the link is no longer available. Thanks for sharing!
The link is available, I just checked. Must be local internet service regulations.

OK, you would have chosen "horse archers" on that map. We're just sharing ideas.

Okay, I’ve got those videos and the map. I’ll find some time to play it here and can share a report or video. By the way, how do you save the initial save file with World Builder (WB) while preventing the map creator from spoiling it? Is there a tool for that?
Change "PlayableCiv=1" to "PlayableCiv=0" for all players except the one you want.

Other remarks.

1/ For competitive games with a community, this is the forum: https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-game-of-the-month.165/

2/ This community does not use "cannon rush" except on "isolation" or "isolated" maps. With neighbours, the game goes "(catapults) >> trebuchets >> cannons".

3/ This community likes using "curaissier rush" because they are very confident that they can use diplomacy to avoid being attacked before the curaissiers are ready.

4/ Question. If there is only one other player on your continent, what does the Chinese community normally do? Stay peaceful and reach astronomy before attacking your neighbour? Or "catapult rush" and conquer your neighbour?
 
1/ For competitive games with a community, this is the forum: https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-game-of-the-month.165/

2/ This community does not use "cannon rush" except on "isolation" or "isolated" maps. With neighbours, the game goes "(catapults) >> trebuchets >> cannons".

3/ This community likes using "curaissier rush" because they are very confident that they can use diplomacy to avoid being attacked before the curaissiers are ready.

4/ Question. If there is only one other player on your continent, what does the Chinese community normally do? Stay peaceful and reach astronomy before attacking your neighbour? Or "catapult rush" and conquer your neighbour?
1. I’ve already joined, but I don’t fully understand the rules.
2. If it’s an Island map, we can achieve a relatively easy Cultural Victory (if that’s not allowed, it’ll definitely be harder, and we’ll consider Cuirassiers and Cannons instead).
3. On Pangaea maps, with 6 AIs, there will be at least two factions, so it’s hard to please everyone. We have to pick a side or build enough strength to influence the AIs, or intervene in their wars early to control the situation. We don’t use tech to sway AI wars, nor do we need a tech lead. Instead, we use begging, extortion, or short wars to secure 10-turn peace treaties, ensuring some level of safety while targeting urgent threats. We’re not afraid of third parties being bribed into war against us, as bribed AIs usually lack a strong army and can be easily defended against to force a treaty. What we do fear is our target vassalizing another nation—that’s our diplomatic focus, and it might force us to use cities, religion, or civics to improve relations or enforce treaties to prevent a major power from vassalizing them first.
4. We’ll attack just before unlocking Feudalism, vassalize the target, and gift them some cities to keep them tech-competitive, allowing us to split research and trade techs
 
Last edited:
If there is only one other player on your continent, what does the Chinese community normally do? Stay peaceful and reach astronomy before attacking your neighbour? Or "catapult rush" and conquer your neighbour?

4. We’ll attack just before unlocking Feudalism, vassalize the target, and gift them some cities to keep them tech-competitive, allowing us to split research and trade techs

Good idea. I also rely heavily on vassals and colonies. But please let me confirm. Do you attack them before astronomy? Vassals do not provide foreign trade routes, and I hate managing my economy without foreign trade routes.
 
Vassals are forced to provide foreign trade routes to their overlord, if I remember correctly. Even if the overlord switches to Mercantilism, the vassal must still provide foreign trade routes.

Oh my god, I just realized the BUG MOD changes trade routes. I’ll need to think about this issu

Where can I find the differences between the BUG MOD and the original version of the game?
 
Last edited:
The BUG mod is only supposed to change the UI and not any actual game mechanics.
 
Good idea. I also rely heavily on vassals and colonies. But please let me confirm. Do you attack them before astronomy? Vassals do not provide foreign trade routes, and I hate managing my economy without foreign trade routes.
Vassals do have trade routes. I just checked the results of Map #286 as Shaka, where I vassalized all the AIs. Look, there are trade routes
 
Last edited:
Vassals are forced to provide foreign trade routes to their overlord, if I remember correctly. Even if the overlord switches to Mercantilism, the vassal must still provide foreign trade routes.

Oh my god, I just realized the BUG MOD changes trade routes. I’ll need to think about this issu

Where can I find the differences between the BUG MOD and the original version of the game?
BUG simply shows more details like 7.5 for a trade route instead of a rounded value of 7. It doesn't actually change any logic in the game.
 
4. We’ll attack just before unlocking Feudalism, vassalize the target, and gift them some cities to keep them tech-competitive, allowing us to split research and trade techs

That would be an unusual strategy around here I think? Personally I would always think it's best to take all the good cities the first war target AI has, since we can exploit them better than they will.
 
BAT mod changes the trade routes (not BUG), to basically undo the double rounding that BTS does.
BUG = just user interface and quality of life changes (fist on leaderboard when AI is plotting)
BAT = BUG + graphics changes (and more precise trade routes), this is a community flavor mod
BUFFY = BUG + anti-cheat measures that we use for Hall of Fame and other competitive games. No trade route rounding.
There's also "Better AI" mod that can be tacked onto any of these that makes minor AI changes but no game rule changes.

The BAT changes to trade routes are good, the only problem is the result is a slight buff to the Great Lighthouse, which is already arguably the best wonder.
Only gameplay change we might have between BUFFY and what you play is around overflow hammers. I don't remember exactly where the last BTS patch landed, but our community decided that excess overflow hammers (more than the cost of the unit being finished) would convert to gold. This was to strike a balance between hammers disappearing without warning the player and preventing unlimited overflow being stacked to finish space race parts the turn they're available.

The Hall of Fame is basically our verified records list using BUFFY mod. https://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/index.php There's a list of settings that are allowed or not allowed, and there's slots for competing for any record possible (game speed, size, difficulty, and victory type). It's not everyone's cup of tea because of the sheer volume of records and that any competitive one is going to require maximizing all the settings to your advantage. For instance, most forum games are going to have normal barbarian activity with no huts and no events, while most HoF records are going to have barbs turned off and huts and events turned on, to give the player every possible advantage. HoF players generally use MapFinder to sort through thousands of maps to find candidates with the best starting position.

Most deity players don't count Apostolic Palace or culture wins as beating the map. I personally don't count UN victories, and others feel strongly that nukes should be taboo. GotM and HoF competitions have slots for every victory.

In a HA rush we generally advise building a handful of chariots over stables in the run-up to building HAs. Exceptions exist (like for Mongolia), but the idea is you don't need the full 6 strength of an HA to mop up a unit that's already been hurt. A classic "snowball" argument where getting out a few chariots allows you to attack earlier and more opportunistically.

The flip side of your idea that attacking earlier is safer is that the earlier you're attacking the fewer units you're using and the more "bad luck" can cost you the game. In other words, I'd expect successful HA rushes to outperform successful construction attacks, but I'd expect HA rushes to have a slightly higher fail rate than construction attacks, all things equal.

Cuirassier rush takes advantage of great people bulbing and tech trading to gain a decisive tech advantage even on a poor map. Meta is Aesthetics (tech trade) -> Literature (with option of building Great Library and National Epic) -> Music for free Great Artist -> bulb Philosophy (for Pacifism) -> double bulb education and taking Nationalism or Military Tradition from Liberalism. Cuirassiers can stomp AIs double your size because the most resistance the AI can offer at the time is longbows/pikes. This is why I think your concern over losing control of the early game is overblown: runaway AIs usually aren't out of control until they get rifling or defense pacts. This is generally only a problem if they're on another continent.
 
That would be an unusual strategy around here I think? Personally I would always think it's best to take all the good cities the first war target AI has, since we can exploit them better than they will.
Note: This is about a 2-5 Fractal map situation. You can see @sylvanllewelyn’s question a few posts above, where the player is in the two-player group, so they can’t take all the AI’s cities. This forces us to research all techs independently before unlocking Compass, which is a disadvantage. That’s why we must leave some cities for vassals to trade techs with
 
BAT mod changes the trade routes (not BUG), to basically undo the double rounding that BTS does.
BUG = just user interface and quality of life changes (fist on leaderboard when AI is plotting)
BAT = BUG + graphics changes (and more precise trade routes), this is a community flavor mod
BUFFY = BUG + anti-cheat measures that we use for Hall of Fame and other competitive games. No trade route rounding.
There's also "Better AI" mod that can be tacked onto any of these that makes minor AI changes but no game rule changes.

The BAT changes to trade routes are good, the only problem is the result is a slight buff to the Great Lighthouse, which is already arguably the best wonder.
Only gameplay change we might have between BUFFY and what you play is around overflow hammers. I don't remember exactly where the last BTS patch landed, but our community decided that excess overflow hammers (more than the cost of the unit being finished) would convert to gold. This was to strike a balance between hammers disappearing without warning the player and preventing unlimited overflow being stacked to finish space race parts the turn they're available.

The Hall of Fame is basically our verified records list using BUFFY mod. https://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/index.php There's a list of settings that are allowed or not allowed, and there's slots for competing for any record possible (game speed, size, difficulty, and victory type). It's not everyone's cup of tea because of the sheer volume of records and that any competitive one is going to require maximizing all the settings to your advantage. For instance, most forum games are going to have normal barbarian activity with no huts and no events, while most HoF records are going to have barbs turned off and huts and events turned on, to give the player every possible advantage. HoF players generally use MapFinder to sort through thousands of maps to find candidates with the best starting position.
Great discussion! I'll engage with you in two follow-up posts

Thank you for your detailed records. Yesterday, our community had a lengthy discussion—hundreds of messages—about the Hall of Fame scoring system, especially after reviewing Map #BTOM124. This map scored a record-breaking 850,000 points, the highest in BTOM history. We found that after securing victory, the winning player didn’t rush to win but instead used Corporations to produce food in all cities, dragging out dozens of boring turns to maximize population for a higher score. On other high-scoring maps, we noticed the same pattern: players didn’t rush to win even when they could, seemingly exploiting the scoring system by inflating population for points. The AIs felt like decorations or NPCs, with little impact on the game. This usually happens on easier maps with excessive food resources and many islands, shifting the focus from gameplay to grinding for points during tedious turns.

This calculator (http://www.dos486.com/civ4/index/calc.shtml) can estimate the score for a victory based on in-game parameters. Our community discovered that the BUG MOD inherited some scoring mechanics from the original game but arbitrarily increased the maximum turn limit from 400 to 500. This change significantly reduced the impact of turn count as a scoring factor. On lower difficulties, the turn count’s weight is already lower, and the 25% increase in maximum turns (400 to 500) further diluted its effect, making it easy to offset the penalty of longer games by growing population.

For example, after Turn 200 on Noble difficulty, increasing total population by 1% per turn can offset the penalty of +1 turn. On Deity, it’s 2%. So, on Noble, if a player is close to victory at Turn 200 with 300 population, they only need to grow by 3 population next turn to offset the +1 turn penalty (which is easily achievable with Biology and Corporations, especially with many coastal cities, where 6–8 population growth per turn is possible). This turns the competition into a 'baby-making contest' rather than a challenge to solve the map. While this could be a creative and fun goal for specific events, if most maps devolve into population grinding, it might stray from the competition’s original intent and make strategies repetitive, reducing the room for creative thinking and unique solutions.

Our community has proposed some fixes:

  1. Increase the weight of turn count or reduce the impact of population in scoring.
  2. If modifying the code is too difficult, revert the maximum turn limit to 400 or even 350.
If you find my suggestions useful, feel free to forward them to the competition organizers."
 
Most deity players don't count Apostolic Palace or culture wins as beating the map. I personally don't count UN victories, and others feel strongly that nukes should be taboo. GotM and HoF competitions have slots for every victory.

In a HA rush we generally advise building a handful of chariots over stables in the run-up to building HAs. Exceptions exist (like for Mongolia), but the idea is you don't need the full 6 strength of an HA to mop up a unit that's already been hurt. A classic "snowball" argument where getting out a few chariots allows you to attack earlier and more opportunistically.

The flip side of your idea that attacking earlier is safer is that the earlier you're attacking the fewer units you're using and the more "bad luck" can cost you the game. In other words, I'd expect successful HA rushes to outperform successful construction attacks, but I'd expect HA rushes to have a slightly higher fail rate than construction attacks, all things equal.

Cuirassier rush takes advantage of great people bulbing and tech trading to gain a decisive tech advantage even on a poor map. Meta is Aesthetics (tech trade) -> Literature (with option of building Great Library and National Epic) -> Music for free Great Artist -> bulb Philosophy (for Pacifism) -> double bulb education and taking Nationalism or Military Tradition from Liberalism. Cuirassiers can stomp AIs double your size because the most resistance the AI can offer at the time is longbows/pikes. This is why I think your concern over losing control of the early game is overblown: runaway AIs usually aren't out of control until they get rifling or defense pacts. This is generally only a problem if they're on another continent.
Regarding victory conditions, we don’t discuss Cultural Victory much. In some competitions, we only allow Conquest and Domination victories. However, in casual games, Diplomatic Victory is allowed because if you can win diplomatically, you can usually win through Conquest or Domination—it’s a convenient shortcut to avoid tedious late-game grinding.

As for early warfare, in competitions, we’re very cautious about using Axeman, Swordsman, or Chariot Rushes outside of the Horse Archer Rush, as they carry high risks, especially diplomatically.

The Cuirassier Rush performs similarly to the Horse Archer Rush, especially in tactical details. I have some questions about how the Cuirassier Rush handles early AI declarations of war (the 'gift cities' tactic doesn’t always work, as the AI attacking you might not be alone, and anyone could throw a wrench in your plans—like tossing a chicken foot into the ring). Defending against declarations after Turn 70 is relatively easy, but how do you recover your economy? The Cuirassier and Cannon Rushes heavily rely on tech advantages, and early expansion prioritizes Villages, leaving you with fewer cities by Turn 70. Being dragged into a war by the AI contradicts this strategy. How do you solve this? Is it very difficult?

We’ve noticed that warmonger neighbors will research Archery immediately after Pottery. If the AI starts causing trouble and we lack Copper or Horses, we’ll go straight for Masonry to build Walls for defense. Before Turn 70, we focus on rapid expansion—tech isn’t a huge issue, as we can use Great Scientists to bulb Compass as a fallback. Once we have an army, we rush straight for Construction or Horseback Riding to counterattack
 
I was thinking of making a list of Bilibili accounts that stream on Deity, to be updated over time. I can't really make out the level from the custom game screen, but judging from AI teching it's pretty safe to assume that the following accounts play on that level. @bigbamboo , it would be great if you could add some suggestions :)

List:
言峰YF
冰山之号角
nanoprince2015
风叶1900
龙殇vancouver
习惯种田
sossos2017
竹竹子啊啊

other guys im not sure if they record vedios .most of them playing just in civ4 Tencet qq group for fun .only match need live broadcast so they may recorded in bilibili
 
Back
Top Bottom