Choked start w/Ragnar

[Jellybug]

Bit by the civ bug again. Haven't played with any rigor since the opening days of the pandemic. I hope all of you are well and safe. I recently rolled a bit of a humdinger with Ragnar.

Settings are Emperor, pangaea, no huts no events. What would you do in this situation?

Spoiler Start :

Spoiler My thoughts are :

Move scout N, NW to find out more about the cow. Would have to see triple gems not to move onto the stone and settle. Can pick up cow later and it saves the need for AH temporarily.

Spoiler Very soon you realize :

Tokugawa is standing between you and the rest of the map

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I'd blindly settle on stone.

 

[Jellybug]

Spoiler Agriculture :

Wet rice, too! What a monster. Seems like that's it tho. Mining-BW next, or AH? I think normally this much forest screams BW---but does the knowledge that Toku is cutting us off raise the priority of checking for horse? Still have to scout the NE for fish. No fish in the south. Did find fish in second ring north of the silver. What is settling priority here? I guess we won't know until the northeast is scouted, but I think if going BW, then settle to share one of the corns. Also, one warrior and this area should be spawnbusted with scout.

 

[krikav]

I would for sure go BW. With Agg and that many forests axerush is certainly an option that could be considered!
I would probably want to settle 2W of the corn, on that PH, to push Toku away, as first priority.

 

[Fippy]

Very obvious, but Pyras are a no-brainer here.
Even if for some reason you cannot rush Toku (no copper or horsies), there would be enuf food to easily reach construction in time (with Rep. Scientists).

I would send my scout past Toku's borders asap to find other AIs, before they eventually close.

 

[sampsa]

I think it's such a powerful start it's not even a huge deal if you have neither copper nor horse. Silver and FIN lake/coast help on the way to construction of if needed (and Mids of course, pointed out by Fips). I'd go min-BW and intuitively settler at size 2.

 

[civac]

You would stop growth at 2 with +10/+13 food capital?

Would strongly consider double worker start here.

 

[SillyGoat]

You would stop growth at 2 with +10/+13 food capital?

Would strongly consider double worker start here.

Pre-bronze there are only two tiles that are worth working (with the possible exception of the lake) so growing and whipping the settler once bronze is in is unattractive.
There is nothing for the workers to do between the 2nd corn farm and BW so a 2nd worker before bronze isn't valuable.
So settler at size 2 or 3.

 

[sampsa]

You would stop growth at 2 with +10/+13 food capital?

Would strongly consider double worker start here.

Yes I would, to get the 2nd city running asap. Double worker is good if the timing works, but I don't think it does.

edit: perhaps it's better to grow to size 3 to keep working the lake at all times. I'm assuming we are giving one -res to 2nd city.

 

[krikav]

Well, there is the coastal tile too. So growing to pop5 could speed up BW and thus everything else.
So much food here so might be worth it to do 6->3 pops for settler.

I like 2 workers but hard to gauge the timinings.

I completely forgot about the stone as a resource, good that @Fippy pointed it out.

 

[civac]

Pre-bronze there are only two tiles that are worth working (with the possible exception of the lake) so growing and whipping the settler once bronze is in is unattractive.
There is nothing for the workers to do between the 2nd corn farm and BW so a 2nd worker before bronze isn't valuable.
So settler at size 2 or 3.

He has 2 wet corns and wet rice. Yeah, you need to calculate the timings for double worker.

 

[krikav]

I tried to play up to settler (Beware of BW spoiler)
Grew up to pop6, whipped out the settler, looks good!

Spoiler T32 :

Worked lake+coast abit to boost commerce.

Such a pity that no copper where around. Would have been so fun turning all these forests to axes and crush Toku.
I think I prefer TW->AH before masonry to possibly find horses. Perhaps myst before mason too since it's needed for fish/clam.
Third city up on the silver, should have cows accessable from capitals culture soon enough.

A fourth city could grab clams in second ring but thats not soo exciting, and other than that a filler out on the coast?
But aggression from 3 cities is perhaps most sensible.

 

[sampsa]

T30 size2

Spoiler :

The issue is that the timing doesn't work. BW is not in so lose some worker turns, then wheel is a bit later which loses some and the / won due to earlier 2nd city won't compensate.

So I think it's between growing to 3 and growing to 6, whip.

 

[SillyGoat]

He has 2 wet corns and wet rice. Yeah, you need to calculate the timings for double worker.

Bronze finishes 2-3 turns after the rice farm completes. 2nd worker before then won't have anything useful to do. 2nd worker should come after settler (settler either whipped from 6 or built from 2/3).

 

[soundjata]

@krikav

Spoiler :

TW+AH+Myst+Masonry is a lot of beakers. Would you jeopardize an early pyramids (<1500 BC) for the knowledge of horses ?

 

[krikav]

I thought @civac's intuition about 2 workers before settler was good, I had the same inclanation. But as it turns out, the timings doesn't work out. Good on @SillyGoat for spotting it.

@sampsa You got that spot settled sooner though, had it been deity that would count for alot. Important spearhead toward Toku.

@soundjata TW pays for itself with connection, so thats a given first choice I think. Perhaps AH is an error... Just me wanting to roll over Toku with chariots speaking perhaps?
If delaying AH then it makes sense to delay myst too and go TW->Mason->AH.
OTOH perhaps failgolding from SH could be an ok alternative to early TW?

I'm not overly worried that the AIs will steal pyramids. Even on Imm/Deity that early pyramids is very rare.
Kudos to @Major Tom for compiling the statistical dataset:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonderdates.656787/

 

[pigswill]

Regarding Toku

Spoiler :

You aren't blocked in by sea until third border pop

 

[Fippy]

Wouldn't wheel before BW pay off more?
Not like you urgently need chops for this monster city to produce something
I usually prefer relaxed city planning with connections in place, and whipping early mostly just loses the useful lake.

 

[krikav]

@Fippy
That could be, but me personally I would value finding copper location earlier higher than abit faster teching.
Thats at least my inclanation going into this map bindly.

Agg leader boxed in on a peninsula tilts me heavily in that direction.

 

[soundjata]

If you want to rush from turn 1 do it ! (warrior rush)
I remember a game where Grashoppa performed a successful warrior rush (no Q) on deity... was long ago