Choked start w/Ragnar
- Thread starter Jellybug
- Start date
Jellybug
Warlord
this is emperor so I'm not too worried about early pyramids... half the time they don't seem to go until Christ.
I'm going to try TW, then mining-BW (thanks @Fippy) . as far as second city, im thinking that plains hill in the west to share the corn and kind of block off Toku as @krikav said. the other spots are kind of awkward. sharing the rice ruins the clam (I guess that's not too big a deal, but better not to if i can help it).
when is best time to build mids? i think after settler number 3? can maybe try to whip it and regrow on the mids
I'm going to try TW, then mining-BW (thanks @Fippy) . as far as second city, im thinking that plains hill in the west to share the corn and kind of block off Toku as @krikav said. the other spots are kind of awkward. sharing the rice ruins the clam (I guess that's not too big a deal, but better not to if i can help it).
when is best time to build mids? i think after settler number 3? can maybe try to whip it and regrow on the mids
@Jellybug Since it's alot of food here, I would want to build pyramids at least partially with the aid of overflow from multiple settlers/workers. If you can get the silver you could perhaps even do a 4pop whip of a settler at pop8 (with 9/100 invested).
Preferably after a granary is in place.
But with so much forests, it's entierly possible to simply chop it out too.
Preferably after a granary is in place.
But with so much forests, it's entierly possible to simply chop it out too.
Jellybug
Warlord
Spoiler 3160BC :
I would probably have built only one warrior, and possibly a barracks too, and tried if possible to finish both with overflow rolling into the settler.
Growing to pop4 is possible, even the unimproved rice is nice and growth to pop4 should be fast with two wet corns.
That way you can improve rice first and perhaps still have time enough to finish the road...?
Delaying rice for roads is quite costly, sure you gain one turn with the settlement, but you miss out on 6-7 turns of rice production which isn't exacly peanuts.
Growing to pop4 is possible, even the unimproved rice is nice and growth to pop4 should be fast with two wet corns.
That way you can improve rice first and perhaps still have time enough to finish the road...?
Delaying rice for roads is quite costly, sure you gain one turn with the settlement, but you miss out on 6-7 turns of rice production which isn't exacly peanuts.
SillyGoat
Warlord
So I was a bit bored and went ahead and plotted out the micro.
(TLDR: Road first and settler now is stronger than growth and farm)
Road and settler now:
t22 put 1t into road on plains tile 1N of capital.
t23-24 road corn
t25 move to forest 1W of corn
t26-27 road
t28 move to forest 1S of capital
t29,30,31,32,33 farm rice (rice farm can be worked t33)
Settler finishes eot 28. Moves to city site t29 and settles t30 and takes 1 corn from capital.
Capital works both corn and lake on t29 while starting a worker. 14 hammers + 4 overflow from settler.
t30 swap corn for rice. 10 food-hammers t30,31 and 32 means worker is 48/60 at start of t33 when the rice completes.
t33 put 12 food-hammers into worker to complete it.
Start barracks and grow to 4 (end of turn 35 after slavery revolt). T36 start worker at size 4, t37 whip worker taking overflow into another worker. 1st chop completes t38/39 depending on when BW completes, so it will be a 2-3 turn worker.
Grow expansion city to size 2 (end of t33) and swap to worker. 1 pop whip as soon as possible (t38 I think?)
Techwise, its currently 4t to mining and 12 turns to bronze (the 15 turn estimate in the science advisor doesn't include the 20% pre-req
bonus for mining as mining research hasn't finished yet
) at the current 12 bpt.Four commerce are added on T30 when the expansion city gets founded (1 from new city tile, 1 for the two trade routes and one from the capital swapping to rice). The new city will add 1-2 gpt in maintenance costs so 1t of 0% science will be needed on t29 to pay for the rest of bronze.
The extra commerce will shave 2-3 turns off bronze so bronze should be in by t34-35, which works out well for the first worker to finish the rice farm and move to a forest to start chopping.
Farm and size 4:
There'e 6 food in the box so the capital can be size 4 eot 22 and can start the settler on t23. So put 12 (adjusted) hammers into a barracks and then start settler. 2 corn, lake and bare rice give 14 food-hammers per turn and 13 commerce per turn.
T22 worker moves to capital. T23 worker moves 1S of capital. t24 start farm. Farm complets on t28.
Capital is at 65/100 on t28 and puts 16 food-hammers per turn into settler t28 and 29, finishing the settler with 7 hammers overflow at eot 29.
t30 settler moves to plains forest. t31 to city site. settle t32. Road link completes t35, trade routes established t36.
So farm first gains 7 commerce between t23 and t30 but looses 12 commerce between t30 and 36 as well as 2 turns of growth and production in the expansion city which delays the worker from that city by 2 turns.
Capital starts worker after settler, finished eot 33 and can start straight into a second worker to be whipped after the slavery revolt so capital production is similar though the worker whip may be delayed by a turn due to later BW from lost commerce.
I think the road and settler at 3 is stronger here as it comes out ahead in both commerce and production.
Well done @SillyGoat !
SillyGoat
Warlord
The post t33 micro is dodgy and will need to be adjusted but it's a good enough first approximation.
(and no I don't normally bother with this level of micro planning for a SP game.
)@SillyGoat It's good that we do that from time to time though. It's nice to see when intuition or conventional wisdom is off the mark.
Nice that @Jellybug was spot on in that roading was superior.
Nice that @Jellybug was spot on in that roading was superior.
konata_LS
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2021
- Messages
- 434
In this map, does it make sense for a coastal city to build a workboat and send it to look for other AIs? 
It looks Toku blocks the land connection to the rest of the world. Since it's Pangaea, there are certainly some people on the west of Toku. Meeting other AIs would give a overview about the diplomacy, religious blocks, and tech pace. If an AI gets early Alphabet, maybe there are some opportunities for trade, some small stuff like Myst or Sailing...?
It looks Toku blocks the land connection to the rest of the world. Since it's Pangaea, there are certainly some people on the west of Toku. Meeting other AIs would give a overview about the diplomacy, religious blocks, and tech pace. If an AI gets early Alphabet, maybe there are some opportunities for trade, some small stuff like Myst or Sailing...?
@konata_LS Yes, I think that makes alot of sense. Meeting the AIs sooner rather than later is almost always good. If nothing else you get a small discount on teching stuff they already know.
But it's also nice to start thinking about diplomacy, figuring out who will dislike who and what good targets there are for aggression.
But it's also nice to start thinking about diplomacy, figuring out who will dislike who and what good targets there are for aggression.
Jellybug
Warlord
Spoiler 2840BC :
Fish Man
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2010
- Messages
- 1,553
I would want to settle on the silver to get access to the happines that much sooner.
With so much food around, happines is important and improving tundra mines and roading it takes forever.
I would want to settle that spot as fast as possible.
I would try to match AH and with T50 (when borders pop) and be ready to improve silver citys cow.
Fish is such a nice tile so I would want to get the culture there asap, so myst makes sense to me. It's nice to have before masonry anyway.
Pottery next might be good, to get 3 financial cottages down on those riverside. Those tiles need to be chopped before that.
A few cottages would make all other techs that much faster to get, and it's cheap now with both agri+fishing in too.
I would want to grow to pop4/5 before next worker, but perhaps you are just catching oveflow this turn...?
Perhaps revolt once the second worker is out, and then be ready to whip settler for city 3?
@Fish Man makes a good point about settling city#2 so that it can reach the cow, but I really like to have that city on a hill since thats good practice against warmongering neighbours. Defending hill cities is super easy, almost so nice that you will want to declare war just to defend and farm xp.
With so much food around, happines is important and improving tundra mines and roading it takes forever.
I would want to settle that spot as fast as possible.
I would try to match AH and with T50 (when borders pop) and be ready to improve silver citys cow.
Fish is such a nice tile so I would want to get the culture there asap, so myst makes sense to me. It's nice to have before masonry anyway.
Pottery next might be good, to get 3 financial cottages down on those riverside. Those tiles need to be chopped before that.
A few cottages would make all other techs that much faster to get, and it's cheap now with both agri+fishing in too.
I would want to grow to pop4/5 before next worker, but perhaps you are just catching oveflow this turn...?
Perhaps revolt once the second worker is out, and then be ready to whip settler for city 3?
@Fish Man makes a good point about settling city#2 so that it can reach the cow, but I really like to have that city on a hill since thats good practice against warmongering neighbours. Defending hill cities is super easy, almost so nice that you will want to declare war just to defend and farm xp.
Jellybug
Warlord
Gah my mind is riddled with niggling questions... tiny trees of thought, the broccoli of indecision.
Second city will be making a worker after growing to two on a barracks (decided to settle on the hill because it blocks toku from claiming clam and getting generally in my face). Or is it better to just go straight for a worker? I think by growing, we can whip granary afterward, since this city doesn't have a lot going for it other than the stolen corn. This worker will likely road to third city and then help make cottages
Utilizing the second city effectively is a challenge for me right now. This second city is the city that would make the best case for writing early. What to do here? Slap a mine on the brown hill and go for great wall failgold? Cottage the riverless green?
Capital will start settler after worker. Perhaps may benefit from growing to four first so the settler can be whipped with overflow into a granary. But i need to chop the forest for the cottages anyway, so seems a waste of a whip when there's no good stuff to grow onto and nothing better to build.
Still unsure whether to settle on the silver. It's a question of whether the worker turns will be better used making cottages in capital faster while also allowing capital to grow on them sooner vs working the silver. Working the silver also is a task...
Split on mysticism or writing. I think there is real benefit to early writing here because our cities will run out of things to build in cramped setting like this. But it makes getting to the fish kinda hard. The cheaper masonry might be the kicker.
Emperor mids seem to go around 500BC usually (was exaggerating earlier). I think the best thing to do for me is just to play a bit. Thank you for the counsel, will update after BW reveal
Second city will be making a worker after growing to two on a barracks (decided to settle on the hill because it blocks toku from claiming clam and getting generally in my face). Or is it better to just go straight for a worker? I think by growing, we can whip granary afterward, since this city doesn't have a lot going for it other than the stolen corn. This worker will likely road to third city and then help make cottages
Utilizing the second city effectively is a challenge for me right now. This second city is the city that would make the best case for writing early. What to do here? Slap a mine on the brown hill and go for great wall failgold? Cottage the riverless green?
Capital will start settler after worker. Perhaps may benefit from growing to four first so the settler can be whipped with overflow into a granary. But i need to chop the forest for the cottages anyway, so seems a waste of a whip when there's no good stuff to grow onto and nothing better to build.
Still unsure whether to settle on the silver. It's a question of whether the worker turns will be better used making cottages in capital faster while also allowing capital to grow on them sooner vs working the silver. Working the silver also is a task...
Split on mysticism or writing. I think there is real benefit to early writing here because our cities will run out of things to build in cramped setting like this. But it makes getting to the fish kinda hard. The cheaper masonry might be the kicker.
Emperor mids seem to go around 500BC usually (was exaggerating earlier). I think the best thing to do for me is just to play a bit. Thank you for the counsel, will update after BW reveal
Jellybug
Warlord
Spoiler Bw :
I don't understand growing to two at all, unless the point is to whip the worker. Best play is what gets the worker out fastest.
Growing to pop4 allows you to work the 1F3C coastal tile. Thats really nice at this stage as commerce is the bottleneck right now.
I would alternate in second city. Whenever capital is growing I would put hammers into a worker working a forest tile or whatever.
When Capital is stagnating on workers/settlers, then second city can work the corn and grow while building barracks.
That way the shared corn is utilized for growth all of the time.
The improvements that should eventually be in place for second city is a mined grassland hill thats shared with capital, and two non-riverside greenland cottages to help capital mature.
Much much later, I think the fate of that city is to have every green or brown flatland farmed and hills windmilled.
I'm dont think l would want to place a library in that city.
Whipping out workers or swords/catapults and failgolding TGW/Pyramids looks nice.
It's a question of whether the worker turns will be better used making cottages in capital faster while also allowing capital to grow on them sooner vs working the silver.
Yeah, thats certainly the question! I know my answer to that question 100%.
I like myst->mason much better than early writing. You will have pottery so economics is taken care of, and failgolding earlier is almost certainly more lucrative.
What would be the benefit of early writing exacly...? Toku won't open borders and the +25% research doesn't add more beakers than an extra cottage would.
It isn't obvious that a early GScientist would give you much benefit either.
I would alternate in second city. Whenever capital is growing I would put hammers into a worker working a forest tile or whatever.
When Capital is stagnating on workers/settlers, then second city can work the corn and grow while building barracks.
That way the shared corn is utilized for growth all of the time.
The improvements that should eventually be in place for second city is a mined grassland hill thats shared with capital, and two non-riverside greenland cottages to help capital mature.
Much much later, I think the fate of that city is to have every green or brown flatland farmed and hills windmilled.
I'm dont think l would want to place a library in that city.
Whipping out workers or swords/catapults and failgolding TGW/Pyramids looks nice.
It's a question of whether the worker turns will be better used making cottages in capital faster while also allowing capital to grow on them sooner vs working the silver.
Yeah, thats certainly the question! I know my answer to that question 100%.
I like myst->mason much better than early writing. You will have pottery so economics is taken care of, and failgolding earlier is almost certainly more lucrative.
What would be the benefit of early writing exacly...? Toku won't open borders and the +25% research doesn't add more beakers than an extra cottage would.
It isn't obvious that a early GScientist would give you much benefit either.
Jellybug
Warlord
Toku has his own answer, it seems, as he keeps settling the hill 3N of the second hill site.
