Chopping Forests

[wcbarney]

If you have 2 workers improving the capital tiles early in the game, chopping can be very effective in building those pivotal National Wonders fast. Remember that you can chop nearby forest outside of your borders and still get decent hammers towards what you are producing.

Thanks, Agent Cooper, and everyone else who has posted to this "Chopping Tutorial." I have considered myself an "experienced player," and yet I had never considered the benefits of chopping down forests. No wonder my NC always took too long to build!

 

[apocalypse105]

Chop around cities:
1) production bonus
2) prevent defensive bonus for invaders
3) improve mobility on flat land

+ more growth

 

[eric_]

So, since starting this thread I mopped up on King (game was well underway when I started this thread) and started my first game on Emperor. I've been chopping everything except two forests in what will be a production center and I have to say, it's made the early game move *much* faster.

Thanks again for the insights!

 

[Randall Turner]

If you have 2 workers improving the capital tiles early in the game, chopping can be very effective in building those pivotal National Wonders fast. Remember that you can chop nearby forest outside of your borders and still get decent hammers towards what you are producing.

I noticed that it's quite a bit less outside your borders, though.

I was chatting with someone about the American border expansion UA, and noted that this was a benefit. (Increased production from chopping forests inside borders.)

I haven't seen it quantified, though.

Realizing how anal we are, someone probably has done the analysis of factors contributing to how many hammers per forest hex under different circumstances. Is that the case?

 

[André Alfenaar]

I only chop when I want a tile improvement other than lumbermill or tradepost. A forest with lumbermill/tradepost are pretty good tiles. Better than mines because of the additional food, which can be converted in specialists or be used to work other tiles. Also one should consider the effect of golden ages. The latter is the reason why in general I use lumbermills next to rivers and tradeposts for other forested tiles. But sometimes it is better to use lumbermills for cities that need extra production tiles.

 

[fmlizard2]

I used to chop a lot in Civ 4 when it seemed more impactful on early builds. Now I almost never chop. For one, it seems to barely make a difference in builds, and also I like having a bucolic empire full of forested spaces. Maybe on Deity I will sacrifice my trees for that little edge.

 

[CYZ]

I only chop when I want a tile improvement other than lumbermill or tradepost. A forest with lumbermill/tradepost are pretty good tiles. Better than mines because of the additional food, which can be converted in specialists or be used to work other tiles. Also one should consider the effect of golden ages. The latter is the reason why in general I use lumbermills next to rivers and tradeposts for other forested tiles. But sometimes it is better to use lumbermills for cities that need extra production tiles.

Do you really prefer 1 over 2 and a single production boost?

I almost never do unless I have nothing but flat grassland.

Really curious how other players see this actually.

 

[Alex_K]

I sometimes find myself annoyed that I can't put a lumbermill on a spot that has forest and gems or something that I already have extra of.

 

[André Alfenaar]

Do you really prefer 1 over 2 and a single production boost?

The point is: you can do it only once. I consider 2 food worse than 1 food + 1 production. A citizen working a 2 food tile adds nothing except for feeding himself (and unhappiness).

 

[eric_]

A citizen working a 2 food tile adds nothing except for feeding himself (and unhappiness).

And, science.

 

[CYZ]

The point is: you can do it only once. I consider 2 food worse than 1 food + 1 production. A citizen working a 2 food tile adds nothing except for feeding himself (and unhappiness).

My point is that a farm allows you to gain 1 gold and a populationpoint for science, plus it pays half for another tile. If you have really alot of rivers you can use that 1 food to sustain a riversidelumbermill. Fact is, most of the time you won't have an abundance of rivertiles. So it's better to farm it and use the additional food for mines. It allows you to grow further for more science and production (from mines).

So again, unless there are no hills or unless there is an abundance of rivers why would you build a lumbermill next to a river?

Especially on hills next to rivers, a selfsustaining 2 production and 1 gold is great.

 

[iggymnrr]

utopia project, apollo program, etc.
it can shave a turn, but yeah, generally dubious value compared to the compounded effects of shaving 2-3 turns off national college

Border pops. For Utopia, borders will be large.

 

[OMGFooFighters]

I like to take advantage of this early game. When I have a fur tile on plains, I'll spend the few extra turns and chop for the extra production boost since the tile will have the same yield after improving it. If I have a hill deer tile with 2 or more wheat (or other extra food tiles) I'll chop the deer tile for the boost ending with a 2f 3p tile.

I always try to steal a worker to help offset the extra time this takes.

Not sure if this is a solid strat since I'm a noob but what evs.

 

[beetle]

Necro thread, responding anyway...

And shaving a turn or so off every subsequent build because you got 2-3 turns on the NC. Hard to quantify but I'd say 20 in the early game is as good as 500 late.

I agree with this. From these forums, I started emphasizing early chops, and it really has paid off.

Definitely chop forested hills -- mines are better than lumbermills...

I agree with vexing that Forests on Hills are pretty much a no-brainer chop.

This I don't get! There are so few good tiles for TP, and forests on hills is second only to dry jungle (for TP). I save dry forested for last, and I only chop if there are zero bare hills in city radius.

 

[Browd]

You say "There are so few good tiles for TP, and forests on hills is second only to dry jungle (for TP)." A forest hill is just a plains tile (1 food and 1 hammer) -- i.e., essentially worthless for most of the game. A TP (1 food, 1 hammer, 1 gold (until Economics) and 1 beaker (after you take Free Thought)) may be the best improvement for a plains tile, but you are burning a citizen (2 food) to work that tile and losing early production from the chop. Gold is plentiful in the game (with city connections and trade routes), while hammers are often in short supply -- I would tend to chop the forest to speed up an early settler and mine the hill (4 hammers after Chemistry).

 

[beetle]

Browd, you make a good point (as always). Even after Economic and Free Thought (which is what I had in mind), I would not bother with TP on plains. So why should I think that is nice for forests on hills?

 

[stormtrooper412]

If I have enough hills nearby (3-5) then I pretty much always chop to speed stuff up, like the NC or if I really really want that particular wonder

 

[DocRock]

I went wondergrabbing with Egypt on Emperor two days ago and started in an area full of forest on grassland with two rivers beneath it. Chopping ~10 forests gave me roughly 200 extra production for GL, Oracle and SH. Afterwards, I build farms and grew Thebes to 22 (so far, game still in progress).

It's not the same than in Civ 4 where it was basically cheating against the AI, but it's a nice boost.

 

[phillipwyllie]

...chopping can be very effective in building those pivotal National Wonders fast...

For me this is why you chop, and the fact imo early growth is more important than early production. I've also noticed that forest on deer and other camp/plantation resources give no benefit so chopping before you make the camp/plantation makes sense.

 

[beetle]

For me this is why you chop, and the fact imo early growth is more important than early production.

Right, even without the 1-time hammer boost, early farms would be more valuable than lumber mills.

Aside from Iroquois, and the rare situation where a city has zero hills or quarries, is a lumber mill ever the best use of a tile?

I've also noticed that forest on deer and other camp/plantation resources give no benefit so chopping before you make the camp/plantation makes sense.

I do not think you are correct about this as far as camps go. The forest adds one production to deer and truffle. Unlike a forest hex, chopping does not get you extra food, so your trading 20 hammers for a free hammer on tile that you will work all game long.