chu ko nu most under-rated unit in the game?

[brutusrox]

is it me, or does anyone else think the chu ko nus (chinese xbows) are one of the best units in the game? there isnt a whole lot of hype about them but i mean, with a 50% meele buff and the collateral damage they destroy pre longbow units, and in some cercumstances longbows. on monarch, i can oracle them around 100 bc so im sure a better player can get it earlier making them more deadly. they are archers so they can recieve city garrison which in some cases is better then city attack. and unless the ai has longbows, walls, protective and hilled cities u dont really need cats. just spam chokes. what r ur opinions on these fantastic units?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A lot of people know it's a really strong UU, so it isn't exactly underrated.

You can get them considerably faster than 100 BC, even without oracle.

 

[jarhead_leif]

You forgot "2 first strikes".

They can win the battle unharmed.

 

[lymond]

Chokes are on of my favorite UUs. They can have a short life on higher levels, but if you play it right you can get some good results with them, even on Deity.

 

[NetGear]

I think AZ did a xbow rush vid while ago. xbow rush is alright and chokus are obviously the better version of that so even better. But when I first played as china I was all hyped up thinking the collateral was gonna be awesome. It was lot less than i expected, but still fantastic unit nonetheless.

 

[Manco Capac]

I think AZ did a xbow rush vid while ago. xbow rush is alright and chokus are obviously the better version of that so even better. But when I first played as china I was all hyped up thinking the collateral was gonna be awesome. It was lot less than i expected, but still fantastic unit nonetheless.

Yes he did! That was epic how Charlie was a sitting duck, how his lands were sucky and on top of the cake, how he did not have iron and had to bleed money for it with Roosy!
'twas epic!

 

[Funky]

Since both Chinese leaders are protective, they are even better. Perhaps the best defensive unit in the game relative to their era. The only real offensive counter to them are war elephants (supported by catapults). If the enemy lacks ivory, they can easily smash his stack before it is able to attack. And if he does have ivory, then pikes are just one tech away.

However, for offensive purposes they are not so special once the enemy has longbows (which he should, when the Chinese are his neighbours!)

 

[reddishrecue]

chu ko nus are very good units indeed especially with the collateral damage.

 

[kochman]

Same difference as vanilla siege weaponry.
Bottom line, if you can do collateral damage while killing units, it's a good deal.
If you can also reduce cultural defense, it's game breaking.

 

[GKey]

Interesting, chocks are actually OVERrated IMHO.
At least my experience with them was not so promising. Their odds vs archers in cities are low and HA's beat them too. I've tried them last time in Tachy's game and if I remember correctly each city capture costed me like 12 chocks. I'd rather stick with HA's for same purposes.

 

[shulgi]

Do you guys use the drill promotion line for them? This seemed to me like the best choice. They're definitely better than catapults but I wouldn't avoid engineering for too long, maybe deprioritzed for a bit.

It's hard to say how good they are, maybe not top tier but I'd rank them pretty high.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

Oh yeah. IIRC, Drill-IV chokonu have 7 eek first strikes. Other guys just never had a chance...

 

[digitalcraft]

They're not bad, the thing is their main ability is kind of redundant. they can't take down city defenses so you need catapults anyways or you're going to lose a lot of units. If you have catas, well the catapults collateral down everything anyways. So while they're pretty good, they're by no means gamebreaking. They're mean if the enemy is on the offensive and send a stack at you, you can eat stacks with chukonus.

 

[jarhead_leif]

Catapults don't start with 2 first strikes, they are not good at defense, and they cannot kill units and capture cities. Which makes them only bombardment support when playing Chinese.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah but in the midgame there's no time to take down defended as castles/walls refuce bombarding effectiveness.

Cho ko nu's are awesome on water-heavy maps, as they're the only collateral that can come iff ships

I think some are underestimating how early machinery can be bulbed/oracled,

 

[kochman]

They're not bad, the thing is their main ability is kind of redundant. they can't take down city defenses so you need catapults anyways or you're going to lose a lot of units. If you have catas, well the catapults collateral down everything anyways. So while they're pretty good, they're by no means gamebreaking. They're mean if the enemy is on the offensive and send a stack at you, you can eat stacks with chukonus.

Catapults don't start with 2 first strikes, they are not good at defense, and they cannot kill units and capture cities. Which makes them only bombardment support when playing Chinese.

Nor do catapults come with +50% vs Melee units... which are often the heart of defense, along with long bowmen, in that era.

 

[bhavv]

They're not bad, the thing is their main ability is kind of redundant. they can't take down city defenses so you need catapults anyways or you're going to lose a lot of units.

You can use spies for that.

 

[Apricottage]

Nor do catapults come with +50% vs Melee units... which are often the heart of defense, along with long bowmen, in that era.

Now if only the Koreans and Chinese could join together into one race...

 

[GKey]

Chock's are good at same thing as normal crossbows are - attack/defend vs melee. But on higher lvl's you rarely will fight vs stucks combined from melee units only. Try to capture city with choks only. Cat's + any CR unit will make job done much more hammer efficiently.

EDIT: And Drill shines when you ALREADY have very good odds, means it will be good at defence, but longbow is still better.

Well I don't want to deny these units completely, would like to see testgame on Immortal+, where chocks really did matter (hammer wise), not were just playing the role crossbows usually do, ie additional stuck defense.

 

[bhavv]

Mixed stacks of crossbows and pikes are better for defense than plain longbows.

If I have iron available, I see no reason to build regular longbows. Even if you arent teching / bulbing machinery + engineering yourself, they are both very reliable tech steals on higher difficulties.

Only reason to build longbows is when you lack iron / machinery / engineering, but have feudalism.