Circus Maximus

[lunfa_reo]

Derived from this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=465274

In my current game (v23, Eternity, Large) I'm in the Classical era sharing a big continent with a few other civs (there is also the "new world" I still haven't discovered because I didn't get to Astronomy yet).

I have 2 sources of horse and a National Horse Trainer in my cities, for a total of 3 cities capable of producing horse-related units and buildings.

I just finished researching the tech that unlocks Circus Maximus. I want to build it, and I see it requires Arenas and Hippodromes (5 total).

Having only 3 cities capable of building hippodromes and little land left to hunt for horses (to create horse herds), I found out I won't be able to built this wonder.

So I'm thinking, wouldn't it be better if Circus Maximus required only Arena and Hippodrome in the city that is going to build it instead of requiring 5 hippodromes in different cities? I feel it will usually be too hard to get the required number of cities capable of producing horse-related buildings. I have 18 cities, same as one AI, another one has 10 and the rest of them 5-6 cities. I think there are not enough horse resources in the map. There might be some in the new world, but to get there I need to research all the way to Astronomy, picking up the tech that would obsolete Circus Maximus on my way (I also think this is a wonder that gets obsolete too soon, it has a very limited usefulness time-window).

What do you think?

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Especially considering that hippodromes obsolete with engineering while the circus obsoletes with...tournaments? it's rare to actually manage to build it.

Not that the bonus it gives is all that great either.

 

[Vokarya]

I have the same issue - the number of Hippodromes required is too high. I think the real problem is that the number of Hippodromes required scales with map size. Even with the National Horse Breeder filling in for one city, it's still really difficult to get to the number required on big maps. Subduing Horse units also is very difficult, because you have to be lucky enough to be in an area that spawns Horses and then there is the random chance of whether the Horse is subdued or simply killed. Along those lines, I find the Master Hunter prerequisite for the Hunter units needs some work -- being able to build a Master Hunter early still feels way too random.

 

[Epona222]

I've managed to build it once in my last 10 games, and that was only by pure fluke that I had the right resources, got lucky capturing a couple of horses to make horse herd buildings, and then by some miracle remembered all the building chains that would enable me to build it - last time I looked, it required horse trainer (or zebra trainer I think?), PLUS chariot workshop, to be able to build hippodrome - getting hippodrome in 7 cities before Circus Maximus obsoletes is really really hard.

To my mind, it either needs to require fewer hippodromes (given how scarce horses can be! - I actually think that 3 hippodromes and 7 arenas would work better, difficult but not almost impossible), or obsolete a bit later. There's an extremely narrow window to build it with very high requirements (in terms of buildings dependent upon other buildings) and I'd rather that it was a bit easier and that my biggest rival beat me to it, rather than no-one being able to build it at all, which is usually the case in my games!

 

[Hydromancerx]

It was changed recently on the SVN. It don't require arenas anymore just the hippodromes.

I can always move back the obsolete tech for the hippodromes.

 

[Vokarya]

It was changed recently on the SVN. It don't require arenas anymore just the hippodromes.

I can always move back the obsolete tech for the hippodromes.

What if you made Hippodrome require Chariot Workshop OR Carriage Builder? The Carriage Builder is at Machinery, which is just before Engineering. Then push back obsoleting Hippodrome to Tournaments, and that would give you until the end of the Medieval Era to build the Circus.

I agree that the Circus Maximus goes obsolete too early. It should probably go obsolete at Humanism. I think that's what it did before in a previous version of C2C. Team Sports or Cavalry Tactics would work too. Most Wonders that do go obsolete get at least 2 full eras of lifespan. That's what I shoot for when I design Wonders. An obsoleting technology in the early Renaissance would give the Circus a better lifespan.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I like the Hippodrome require Chariot Workshop OR Carriage Builder part. Not so sure about Circus Maximus at Humanism though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Cavalry Tactics is a good obsolete tech. The wonder does need to be beefed up a bit, iirc it is only as good as a national wonder at the moment.

 

[Faustmouse]

I don't know if it is fixed now, but the quest "The Horse Whisperer" is also almost impossible to finish because of the stables...

 

[lunfa_reo]

Thanks for your replies!

@Hydro: I think the problem are not the Arenas but the Hippodromes, those are the ones difficult to build because of scarce horses. Maybe make Circus Maximum only require Hippodrome in the city it's going to be built (apart from the Arenas)?

 

[Vokarya]

I like the Hippodrome require Chariot Workshop OR Carriage Builder part. Not so sure about Circus Maximus at Humanism though.

I suggest just pushing it back to somewhere in the Renaissance. A quick look at the BTS wonders that do go obsolete shows that they generally get between 2 eras and 3.5 eras of life. The exception is the Kremlin, which gets 1 era (from the late Industrial to the late Modern). I haven't tried to do this yet for the C2C Wonder collection.

Another thought I had would be to open up Chariot Workshop a little more -- right now it requires Horse Trainer or Zebra Trainer. Could some of the other animal trainers work with it? I would specifically suggest Camel Trainer and Mule Trainer, but others might work. ("Gentlemen, start your llamas!")

 

[LumenAngel]

I already played 5 games of C2C.
This wonder was never built in these 5 games...
Too hard for AI, I think and I never think bout it (in fact, i dont often use horse a lot before medieval)

 

[Hydromancerx]

I've managed to build it once in my last 10 games, and that was only by pure fluke that I had the right resources, got lucky capturing a couple of horses to make horse herd buildings, and then by some miracle remembered all the building chains that would enable me to build it - last time I looked, it required horse trainer (or zebra trainer I think?), PLUS chariot workshop, to be able to build hippodrome - getting hippodrome in 7 cities before Circus Maximus obsoletes is really really hard.

To my mind, it either needs to require fewer hippodromes (given how scarce horses can be! - I actually think that 3 hippodromes and 7 arenas would work better, difficult but not almost impossible), or obsolete a bit later. There's an extremely narrow window to build it with very high requirements (in terms of buildings dependent upon other buildings) and I'd rather that it was a bit easier and that my biggest rival beat me to it, rather than no-one being able to build it at all, which is usually the case in my games!

Believe it or not the Circus Maximus is set to require 3 hippodromes, but I think the map size and/or difficulty level increases the amount you need.

 

[Vokarya]

Belie it or not the Circus Maximus is set to require 3 hippodromes, but I think the map size and/or difficulty level increases the amount you need.

I'm pretty sure it's map size. On a Giant map, it takes 6 Hippodromes to build the Circus.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I don't know if it is fixed now, but the quest "The Horse Whisperer" is also almost impossible to finish because of the stables...

I usually succeed at this one. You just have to get those camels and elephant trainers working. Settle camels and Elephants as herds in cities without horses, camels or elephants. All three trainers lead to stables.