Citizen Viewpoint: Seperating the Departments

[Strider]

Should we seperate the executive departments as follows:

Bolded text is the changes

2.  Council 
           
           e.  Ministry of Internal Affairs 
              1.  Is responsible for settler placement. 
              2.  Is responsible for wonder building, including prebuilds. 
              3.  Governor of cities that do not have a provincial governor. 
              4.  Is responsible for the mapping of Provincial Borders. 
              5.  Monitor overall happiness of COUNTRY_NAME.
              6.  Coordinate efforts of Governors on national projects.
            f.   Ministry of Defense       
              1.  Is responsible for troop movements. 
              2.  Is responsible for defensive plans. 
              3.  Is responsible for offensive plans. 
              4.  Is responsible for troop upgrades and terminations. 
              5.  Track relative strength of foreign nations
            g.   Ministry of Foreign Affairs
              1.  Is responsible for declarations of war. 
              2.  Is responsible for peace treaties. 
              3.  Is responsible for construction of embassies. 
              4.  Is responsible for rights of passage. 
              5.  Is responsible for trade embargoes. 
              6.  Is responsible for mutual protection pacts. 
              7.  Is responsible for placement of spies. 
              8.  Is responsible for intelligence gathering, spying and sabotage. 
              9.  Track world-wide diplomatic situation.
             h.   Ministry of Trade 
              1.  Is responsible for trade deals. 
              2.  Is responsible for tracking the status and expiration of established deals.
     [B]     3. Is responsible for monitoring other civilizations economical status[/B]
    [B]     i.   Ministry of Culture
              1. Is responsible for monitoring [insert civ name]'s cultural status.
              2. Is responsible for working with govonors to expand [insert civ name]'s culture.
              3. Is responsible for coordinating efforts to save a city from flipping, or to flip a city to us. 
              4. The Culture Advisor may override the build queues of a city in which any of its' 20 tiles falls within the borders of another 
civ. Only cultural improvements, and/or wonders (provided a Great Leader is used) may be placed into the queue as the next item to be built.
            j.   Ministry of Research
              1.  Is responsible for tech research queue. 
              2.  Is responsible for tech trades. 
              3.  Is responsible for tech espionage. 
              4.  Is responsible for coordinating with the Ministry of Trade to find the best trade/tech deals.
              5.  Is responsible for monitoring rival civs research and  tech status.[/B]

Discussion on this may be found here

Note: This is not an offcial poll, the passing of this does not mean that it will be added. If this is ever implemented this will be implemented at the Start of Term 4, and we have plenty of time to run an offcial poll over this matter.

What this does:

This proposed amendment seperates culture from the internal affairs department, and creates a Culture Ministry. It also seperates the Trade and Technology department into the Trade department and the Research Department, each dealing with it's respective area's.

 

[Bootstoots]

I voted for none. My reasoning can be found in the discussion thread (I don't see the need to go back to the more traditional system with 6 Council members).

 

[ravensfire]

None - no reason to go back to the six departments. We're doing quite well as it is.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Civanator]

Seperate both!, but do it at the beginning of term 4?

 

[Chieftess]

Seperate both (And start at term 4). Give culture the added ability to provide "spontenous roleplay" in the forums (that is, heritage-type threads. Not just storylines, but roleplay elements similar to that of the middle of DG1). At the very least, Science and Culture would be stepping stones to being involved more in the demogame.

 

[Strider]

We are not doing "well."

Currently, we are sitting next to the Civ3 culture superpower, the babylonians, and one discussion has yet to been launched on what might be done. Military has discussed launching a campaign against them, but that was for expansion purpose's only, not cultural. One thing, even planning for future, has yet to be done. It is clear that if we keep it the way it is, one of the major aspects of this game, will be ignored.

 

[Bootstoots]

Instead of trying to change a nearly unchangeable constitution, why don't you go over to the domestic department (or IA rather) and offer to help them out with the cultural aspect of that position?

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Bootstoots
Instead of trying to change a nearly unchangeable constitution, why don't you go over to the domestic department (or IA rather) and offer to help them out with the cultural aspect of that position?

Or, I could just change it, for then an elected leader gets to do it. Which is much more democratic then someone choosing who presides over what.

 

[Sarevok]

separation of the departments can ease the significant workload that T&T faces, and can create new positions that can bring in more people to the demogame.

 

[Chieftess]

Trade actually has a higher workload than you may think. (Perhaps Oct and I made it look easy?)

 

[Sarevok]

that would be to pure skill only

 

[FortyJ]

I must be extremely myopic because I fail to see any benefit that can be gained from splitting the departments in question.

First, let us examine the potential benefits of forming an independent Culture Department. The arguments are that doing so will increase the emphasis on cultural improvements throughout the empire because the Department of the Interior has too many things to be concerned with to handle this task. I understand the argument. The problem is, I'm not buying it. Neither the Department of the Interior nor any newly formed Cultural Minister would have any power to increase production of cultural improvements as this authority rests solely with the regional governors.

Furthermore, CT's request to allow the Cultural Minister to create "heritage-type" threads implies that this cannot be done already. Forgive my naivete, but do we really need a Cultural Minister for this? Why not simply create some of these threads on your own?

With respect to the proposed benefits of splitting Trade and Technology into two separate departments, I must say that doing so will create redundancy of effort between the two departments. We have already acquired more technology through diplomacy than through research and as we progress into the Middle Ages and beyond, this trend will only increase. Because of the research advantages that our rivals have, our research path will likely be based what technologies are not available through trade. Thus, it follows that any Science Department we create will still be secondary in nature to our Trade Department.

It seems silly to create a department simply for the purpose of creating one. I may yet be proven wrong, but I don't see how an independent Culture Department or Science Department will improve the efficiency of our government.

 

[GenMarshall]

I beleve we should separate the offices. I beleve it would help ease the load of the current offices so that they dont have to work as hard.

 

[Chieftess]

You know, I'm still perplexed on why we waited 2 1/2 to 3 demogames just to make all these changes all of the sudden...

 

[Rik Meleet]

Vote = no.

Yes, some things do not work, but this change proposal is a "AAAH we panic, let's change something" kind of measure. First you need to analyse what is going wrong a little bird whispers: senate before you propose changes to solve them.

 

[Chieftess]

It's NOT a "we're in a panic!" measure. I'm not panicing...

 

[Strider]

Originally posted by Rik Meleet
Vote = no.

Yes, some things do not work, but this change proposal is a "AAAH we panic, let's change something" kind of measure. First you need to analyse what is going wrong a little bird whispers: senate before you propose changes to solve them.

Rik, this has nothing to do with the recent CC's. I have been planning this out for weeks. I have the entire const. in a wordperfet document with little notes and everything over what needs to be changed (well not over every little thing). Remember this is my viewpoint on what needs to be changed.

 

[Strider]

FortyJ, you make a post saying your against the things that not even CT and I are 100% sure about, idea's and that's it. You made no direct reference's over any of the things we are actually trying to implement.

 

[ravensfire]

Related to some of 40J's points, let's look at the question of WHY some of the changes were made.

A major reason was simple - during DG3, the Culture department was virutally useless. Nobody missed it. The interaction between various departments was also examined, and areas of significant overlap were found (Science and Trade).

Here is the original discussion for these changes, and how we progressed.

Trade has a significant influence on many departments, but none so much as on the Tech. Who would control the trade of, and for tech? By combining them, not only do we have a logically organized department, many conflicts disappear.

Another area of overlap was Culture and IA. By combining them, we again have another logically organized department - one that keeps an eye on the overall non-military health of the nation.

This demand for a seperate Culture department is utter foolishness. If there is such a need for it, why hasn't that need been demonstrated to the current MIA? NOBODY has mentioned this before now? How can you propose to change something that you can't tell if it works or not?

Then there is the [sarcasm]wonderful[/sarcasm] idea to allow the overriding of build queues. Yeah - that's a good idea. Rather than have the leader actually try to demonstrate the need and value of a change, just give the carte blanche on the change. Real democratic there. Uh huh.

Rik makes a very good point though. One of the changes has not worked - moving the purse strings to the Senate. I was one of the major supporters of that idea - and I want it changed. The only change we should be seriously looking at and considering is Oct's proposal for Ministery of Finance and Labor.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Chieftess]

On the build queue issue - Give me one reason why it's "democratic". I have yet to see ANY real discussion on what to build next. 1 person deciding what to build in 5 cities? That's not democratic.