City Automatically Starves Citizens

ggganz

a.k.a. The Scyphozoa
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:help: I was playing a game as Huayna Capac in Multiplayer and in my second city (Tiwanaku) just got to two population and then it said that the citizens were going to starve when it had plenty of :food: tiles it refused to work. :help: Automation was on and there were no special requests (e.g., emphasise :food:, :hammers:, or :commerce:), so what's going on? :help: I attatched the save file, but you will have to load it in Hot Seat and pause the Turn Timer by pressing Pause-Break. :help: When it says "Enter password for ggganz." just leave it blank. :help:
Download it: View attachment 136752 :help:
I will submit this bug to Firaxis (See link in signature). :help:
 
I can confirm this behavior. When I saw it, it was trying to maximize specialist output by creating more specialist scientists than the city could support.
 
Yes, but I was using no specialists. I had not even touched the city screen, exept for maybe a unit queue. It is just a matter of switching a citizen from one tile to another. Why didn't the govenor fix it?

Oh, and thanks for the quick reply. :rolleyes:
 
I have this behaviour too. Somehow i think it is deliberate yet sometimes i think it is plain stupidity.....
 
This is quite a well known problem in Warlords. It seems to have resulted from an attempt to make the governor smarter, by encouraging it to run specialists if starvation in the city is unavoidable. Now there's some debate as to whether this is a good idea, but particularly in newly captured large cities it can be sound.

Unfortunately the implementation was extremely crude and poorly thought out. They simply made it so the governor regards food as of zero value if the city is starving, and there are insufficient food tiles available to compensate. This unfortunately means that in the event that a city is suffering even a 1 food deficit (even a very temporary one, say due to the presence of enemy units), the governor removes all the workers from tiles which largely give food, and turns them into specialists, since it sees them as giving better production. It doesn't recognise that it's turning a probably temporary deficit with dozens of turns to fix before a population starves into an immediate problem, with population starving in only a couple of turns. The income from the specialists is not worth the destruction of all the city's stored food, and the loss of starvation correcting time.

The bugged nature of this is especially blatant when the governor starts doing things like choosing to use 1 food 2 commerce tiles when 3 food 2 commerce tiles are available and the city is starving. Since it sees food as of no value during starvation, it cannot distinguish between these tiles, even though one has the obvious advantage of slowing the starvation.

For the human player this is merely very annoying. Every time a city dips into starvation for whatever reason, you have to reset all the tiles. If you don't spot it, you lose a population every turn until you fix it. For the AI though this is extremely damaging, since the governor and AI city management are essentially the same. It usually corrects itself after the population has starved a couple of points, as it eventually recognises there are now enough food tiles to support the available pop (or whatever temporary interference is now gone), but it has wasted a couple of population, and immense amounts of food in the process.

I think Firaxis may have been trying to fix something, but they've drastically broken it in the process, and this REALLY ought to have been spotted in testing. It's blatantly obvious there's a problem with the governor in almost every game I play, and I spotted it within about 20 minutes of starting Warlords for the first time.
 
I think that it was introduced to make AI stronger for spaceship victory.I had sabotaged any tile to postpone the spaceship launch by another AI, but its using of specialists also if it meant starvation made my use of spy not so useful.If you have a city with 20 people and you sabotage all mines i assure you that the best tactic is to starve city and make use of specialists instead of waiting to rebuild the tiles.
 
Well it's unfortunately nowhere near that specific. If it only applied to cities that were constructing spaceship components (and hence the end of the game is very near) there might be some argument for it, but when it happens in the middle ages it's plain stupid. There's also no excuse for it choosing to use a tile which is identical in every way to another available tile, except that it produces less food.
 
MrCynical said:
This is quite a well known problem in Warlords. It seems to have resulted from an attempt to make the governor smarter, by encouraging it to run specialists if starvation in the city is unavoidable. Now there's some debate as to whether this is a good idea, but particularly in newly captured large cities it can be sound.

Unfortunately the implementation was extremely crude and poorly thought out. They simply made it so the governor regards food as of zero value if the city is starving, and there are insufficient food tiles available to compensate. This unfortunately means that in the event that a city is suffering even a 1 food deficit (even a very temporary one, say due to the presence of enemy units), the governor removes all the workers from tiles which largely give food, and turns them into specialists, since it sees them as giving better production. It doesn't recognise that it's turning a probably temporary deficit with dozens of turns to fix before a population starves into an immediate problem, with population starving in only a couple of turns. The income from the specialists is not worth the destruction of all the city's stored food, and the loss of starvation correcting time.

The bugged nature of this is especially blatant when the governor starts doing things like choosing to use 1 food 2 commerce tiles when 3 food 2 commerce tiles are available and the city is starving. Since it sees food as of no value during starvation, it cannot distinguish between these tiles, even though one has the obvious advantage of slowing the starvation.

For the human player this is merely very annoying. Every time a city dips into starvation for whatever reason, you have to reset all the tiles. If you don't spot it, you lose a population every turn until you fix it. For the AI though this is extremely damaging, since the governor and AI city management are essentially the same. It usually corrects itself after the population has starved a couple of points, as it eventually recognises there are now enough food tiles to support the available pop (or whatever temporary interference is now gone), but it has wasted a couple of population, and immense amounts of food in the process.

I think Firaxis may have been trying to fix something, but they've drastically broken it in the process, and this REALLY ought to have been spotted in testing. It's blatantly obvious there's a problem with the governor in almost every game I play, and I spotted it within about 20 minutes of starting Warlords for the first time.
You don't get it, do you? I don't have Warlords yet, and it is simply the govenor's fault. All it had to do was make one tile worked that wasn't by moving one of the huts!
 
Great post MrCynical. The situation you describe has happened to me in all my Warlords games. It means more micromanagement for me but for the AI it can be crippling. I hope Firaxis reads this thread and is able to address in the patch.
 
Ah, thank you for that insightful post, MrCynical!

Did this change occur in v1.61 or Warlords (v2.00)? I skipped v1.61. I was really wondering why my spies always came upon severely starving AI cities in Warlords! I figured naively at first that the AI was doing something sneaky and clever, and I toyed with the idea of trying to mimick it. (After all, it will pop out Great People at astonishing rates!). Thanks for the voice of reason.
 
I've found it happening to me during long wars. War weariness temporarily pushes unhappiness above happiness and the next turn the city is starving. I open it up and on a say 22 size city I suddenly have as many as nine specialists.
 
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