City Limitations via Civics

JosEPh_II said:
I don't know what else you added to this but the AI is kicking my Behind on Noble! Of the Original AI and Player I rank last. Only the 4 new Civs from the BarbCiv element are ranked below me. I have 7 cities and the AI had 12 to 7 (only 2 had 7 the rest has 12,12, 11, 10, and 9).

I managed to get Shamanism 1st and then Tengrii (I also had a Horse Resource, Whew!). But I lost out badly trying to get Mono. In fact Mono is now getting picked up faster than Poly (see SO the breaking up of the tech tree paths is working). And Buddhism is sucked up right after Mono. This path needs some more attention.

I set this map up as a Giant RoM_lakes Map with 7AI. Barb Civ On. No REV, No Vassals, No Tech Diffusion, NO Inquisitions.

I battled Neanders for sometime while I was still sitting at 3 cities. But eventually pushed them back.

I now have 6 AI that have declared War on me. The Portuguese bribed 4 of them (Mongols, Zulu, Vikings, and Selassie (sp?). Of course Arabia and Spain are minor civs that formed on my borders and the Greeks which just became a Full Civ declared war too! I don't know If I'll survive to Industrial Era.

JosEPh :)
Click to expand...

If you have Tengrii and horses you should be unstoppable. Get the cavalry out and swoop down on them like a wolf on the fold! That is what Tengrii is for. :D
 
Tengrii buildings "soup" up all mounted units! They can move more plots per turn and have better attack strength. You also don't need the horse resource in the vicinity of the city to build horses!
 
While I have horse man, chariots, and just got lt. swordsman, I still need assassins and rangers. The AI Portugal is way ahead of me (Ranked #1 580+ pts, while i rank 8th 280+ pts). And a city with 2 horesmen, 5 axe, and 5 archers with 35 city defense bonus could not keep out the 3 Rams, 2 Rangers, 2 assassins, 4 bandit foot pads, 4 Lt Sword, and 3 Axe, and 2 healers. They captured my city in 2 turns. :p

I'm trying to get to Horse breeding as fast as I can. That city was also my Elephant source and I had just researched Elephant Riding. :cry: All that effort now gone.

This is gonna be one tough game. I already cheated by going into WB and erasing Portugal's 2 Guarded settlers heading to my north border. He's trying to surround me with his cities. Boxing me in against a big lake and a mountain range. The Zulu are trying to box me in on the opposite of my empire. Only the NE corner is still open because I have a treaty with Sitting Bull (a recent minor gone Full). If Jaoa covers my NW corner next to the lake then I can't expand any more. Right now I have a small strip I can put cities on to keep the North open. But losing that city put a big hole in my eastern flank.

My biggest city is only a size 14 and my capital is only a 12, Jaoa already has 4 cities over 20 pop. His Capital is 27. Now if the Zulu, Mongols, and Ethiopian units show up I'm definitely toast.

JosEPh:)
 
This subject needs revisited.

Why?

The recent Food and Maintenance/gold changes now make City Limits obsolete. You can Not easily exceed the artificial limits that CL imposes with CL even turned Off now. So therefore they are not needed and their removal would lighten the coding Load and Options page for the Mod/game.

In v17 alone it takes from 12000BC to ~7000BC to get your Capital to size 2 pop. By the Time you get Tribalism just past ~5000BC your Capital is just hitting 3-4 pop. Once you leave the Prehistoric Era for Ancient ~3000BC you Capital is Finally approaching pop size of 8-12 (local resources help determine where in that range you will be).

By the time you reach ~1000BC with any luck you may have 5-8 cities varying in pop sizes from 1 to 12-14 range and your Gov't Civic choice will be at Monarchy by this time. Even w/o City Limits Turned ON.

So City Limits have already been achieved without having the Added Option turned ON or added in Civic xml files or other coding sources.

It's Time to lighten the Ship. City Limits Need to GO Bye Bye.

JosEPh
 
JosEPh_II said:
This subject needs revisited.

Why?

The recent Food and Maintenance/gold changes now make City Limits obsolete. You can Not easily exceed the artificial limits that CL imposes with CL even turned Off now. So therefore they are not needed and their removal would lighten the coding Load and Options page for the Mod/game.

In v17 alone it takes from 12000BC to ~7000BC to get your Capital to size 2 pop. By the Time you get Tribalism just past ~5000BC your Capital is just hitting 3-4 pop. Once you leave the Prehistoric Era for Ancient ~3000BC you Capital is Finally approaching pop size of 8-12 (local resources help determine where in that range you will be).

By the time you reach ~1000BC with any luck you may have 5-8 cities varying in pop sizes from 1 to 12-14 range and your Gov't Civic choice will be at Monarchy by this time. Even w/o City Limits Turned ON.

So City Limits have already been achieved without having the Added Option turned ON or added in Civic xml files or other coding sources.

It's Time to lighten the Ship. City Limits Need to GO Bye Bye.

JosEPh
Click to expand...

I am finding that city limits are still limiting me but not by much. It takes a long time to build that tribe and there are other things to build.
 
So no one else sees this?

Does anyone that plays with City Limits On ever try it now with them Off?

C'mon Man! It's really that obvious. CL is not needed any more.

JosEPh :)
 
JosEPh_II said:
So no one else sees this?

Does anyone that plays with City Limits On ever try it now with them Off?

C'mon Man! It's really that obvious. CL is not needed any more.

JosEPh :)
Click to expand...

I disagree. I really like having unsettled areas in the world for much longer. Withoutnteh limits the AI spreads small cities all over quickly.
 
I'm sorry koshling but you are Dead Wrong on this one. The AI does Not spread small cities all over quickly. They can Not do this any more because of the Gold and food changes.

My current v18 game is at 190BC, huge, lakes map, with 8 AI. Marathon speed Noble level.

I currently lead my game with 7 cities. I captured 3 from Charlie when I had 4 cities as he was crowding me, and he had 5 then.
Rome and Mali both have 6.
Australia has 5 and will soon found his 6th.
There are 2 more at 4 (forgot there names :p )
Hannibal is at 3
Charlie is at 2.

It nearly broke me financially to capture his 3 cities. I had to reduce my research to 10% to keep a +1 gold/turn. I only have 300 gold treasury now that I have held those cities for 500 years! My research rate is back up to 55%. If the game is doing this to me it is also doing it to the AI as evidenced by Mali and Rome only being at 6 cities and the rest below that.They have Not been at war yet.

If the AI was spamming small cities everywhere they would have had double the # of cities I have because they are Not as gold strapped as I was.

I can post my savegame and you all can look at it for yourselves.

I reiterate City Limits are no longer needed. You have achieved slowing down AI and Player eXpansion by the dramatic reduction of Gold and the Amount of Food as needed for city pop growth.

And there is Plenty of wilderness left in this game to boot.

JosEPh :)
 
JosEPh_II said:
I'm sorry koshling but you are Dead Wrong on this one. The AI does Not spread small cities all over quickly. They can Not do this any more because of the Gold and food changes.

My current v18 game is at 190BC, huge, lakes map, with 8 AI. Marathon speed Noble level.

I currently lead my game with 7 cities. I captured 3 from Charlie when I had 4 cities as he was crowding me, and he had 5 then.
Rome and Mali both have 6.
Australia has 5 and will soon found his 6th.
There are 2 more at 4 (forgot there names :p )
Hannibal is at 3
Charlie is at 2.

It nearly broke me financially to capture his 3 cities. I had to reduce my research to 10% to keep a +1 gold/turn. I only have 300 gold treasury now that I have held those cities for 500 years! My research rate is back up to 55%. If the game is doing this to me it is also doing it to the AI as evidenced by Mali and Rome only being at 6 cities and the rest below that.They have Not been at war yet.

If the AI was spamming small cities everywhere they would have had double the # of cities I have because they are Not as gold strapped as I was.

I can post my savegame and you all can look at it for yourselves.

I reiterate City Limits are no longer needed. You have achieved slowing down AI and Player eXpansion by the dramatic reduction of Gold and the Amount of Food as needed for city pop growth.

And there is Plenty of wilderness left in this game to boot.

JosEPh :)
Click to expand...

Just curious JosEPH but if the AI isn't spamming a lot of cities and thus not reaching the "limit" in place, what do you think will change-- or what is it you want to change by removing the soft city limits?
 
Eldrin,
I'm trying to point out that City Limits in Any form is no longer needed.

It's just another lay that is basically useless now. So why add more content that just duplicates what the game mechanics already achieve?

I am not out to change the way the game is. And I don't see any changes happening Unless you went back to how Gold, Maintenance, and food/pop were 2 versions ago.

You all have Stopped the "City Spamming" dead in it's tracks for even a hard core "spammer" like me. And if you have stopped me, you Most definitely have stopped the AI. City spamming with C2C is a thing of the past with the mod in it's current state. Goal achieved, so the Artificial (IMHO) City Limits and "soft" Limits are needless piece of code cluttering up the size of the Mod.

Have I been unclear about this in anyway?

Edit: 110AD
Rome 9 Cities, no war
Mali 9 Cities no war
Me 8 Cities still at war with charlie
Greeks 8 No war
Australia 8 nowar
China 5 no war
Carthage 5 no war
Maya 4 No war
Holy Roman 2 war with me.

In previous versions the number of cities would have been twice as many and a whole lot more war. (Of course the towers have a Huge impact on waging war along with the Cost of war)

The Numbers speak loudly for themselves.

JosEPh
 
I still have the excess-gold issue far more than any issue with not having enough in V18. Currently sitting on about 20K (JUST got to middle ages) and making about 250 per turn with nothing to do with it. Gold is not a limitting factor in any way, at least with my play style.
 
Gold just kicked in for me when I got Proletariat and Republic. Up to this point Gold was a Serious deterrent to building additional cities. Not only for me but for the AI as well.

As more of the AI get these 2 or equivalent Civics, Then there will be a new wave of eXpansion hopefully. But early eXpansion has been curtailed greatly. This can't be denied.

And truthfully for me, of the 4X's, exploration and eXpansion was were I "had" the most fun. Now eXpansion is more tedious/less fun. The "race" to get the best spots are bridled and so even eXploration is diminished. So I'm learning to try to maximize the other 2 X's, eXploit and eXterminate. My Builder Style of Game play has now been forcefully shifted to "war monger". And I'm not entirely happy about that. But that's the way the Mod is forcing me to play. So I'll roll with it.

JosEPh
 
JosEPh_II said:
Gold just kicked in for me when I got Proletariat and Republic. Up to this point Gold was a Serious deterrent to building additional cities. Not only for me but for the AI as well.

As more of the AI get these 2 or equivalent Civics, Then there will be a new wave of eXpansion hopefully. But early eXpansion has been curtailed greatly. This can't be denied.

And truthfully for me, of the 4X's, exploration and eXpansion was were I "had" the most fun. Now eXpansion is more tedious/less fun. The "race" to get the best spots are bridled and so even eXploration is diminished. So I'm learning to try to maximize the other 2 X's, eXploit and eXterminate. My Builder Style of Game play has now been forcefully shifted to "war monger". And I'm not entirely happy about that. But that's the way the Mod is forcing me to play. So I'll roll with it.

JosEPh
Click to expand...

I still go builder, but eXploration is a bit of a problem in the beta, all those animals, and they gang up on you to.:D
 
You just seem to have a "way" with the Neanders too! ;)

JosEPh :lol:
 
Can a new game option be added for a "Strict City Limits"? Ones that no matter how big or small your map is and that will not allow you to build more cities beyond the civic limit.

Note this would not be for people like JosEPh_II who like to expand. But would be more for people like perilousride who want the AI to have room to expand even if other civs get there first.

I would like them to be set at ...

Anarchism = 3
Chiefdom = 6
Despotism = 9
Monarchy = 12
Republic = 12
Theocracy = 12
Democracy = Unlimited
Totalitarianism = Unlimited
Technocracy = Unlimited

Thanks in advance to whomever can get this made. :goodjob:
 
I was originally told this was in one of the older versons. It could be useful if you wanted to set up games where cities are more like the provinces in Paradox games.
 
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