City Limitations via Civics

Historically, there was a sort of sliding scale between Absolute Monarchy and Constitutional Monarchy, with the monarch's powers slowly being chipped away over the centuries. Queen Victoria had rather more say in things than our current Queen (who has almost none, really), and her predecessors more yet.

That slow decline on Monarchistic power probably first became noticeable with Magna Carta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta) in 1215, which theoretically (and along with a few other things that were going on around that time) ended the monarch as all-powerful despot. That'd make a great World Wonder, btw. (Perhaps reducing anarchy time for some sorts of civics? Or improving noble specialists.)

The Monarchs during Britain's Imperial period were Emperors in both title and fact. But the conquered variety of vassalage does probably represent that well enough.

I'm currently playing a game on Emperor level, and have discovered that the AIs seem completely immune to revolutions, and thus also completely unconcerned with city limitations. Bit of a shame, as I like a bit of churn, and revolutions usually stop the AIs from amassing ridiculously large numbers of cities early on. The Celts (on a different continent to me) are taking over the world with 38 cities right now (still in the Classic period), and no real instability. I suspect they only stopped getting bigger because they ran out of people to conquer over there. The game is a bit of a lost cause at this point, with them running off into the distance. I'm guessing they're avoiding revolutions because they have crazy numbers of town watchmen in every city, (and no money concerns at all at that difficulty level that would otherwise prevent having so many watchmen. They're sitting on about 50K gold at the moment.) and the built in stability points they provide are making revolutions implausible. Perhaps having Town Watchmen (and their policing promotion upgrades) reduce crime (which reduces instability in and of itself) AND reduce revolt chance makes them overpowered for their time period.

In addition, my nearer neighbours, who are also far bigger than I could risk being without bankruptcy or rebellion, are absolutely terrible at invading me, even though they have the technological edge from having so many cities. So many of their forces are town watchmen (which cannot attack, and aren't actually that great at defending after a while) that they just don't have the muscle to invade me properly, or defend against my counter-attacks. The AI seems to be following the logic that if 1 Town Watchman reduces revolution chance by 10%, then having 10 of them per city is a brilliant plan. Which it is, if you can afford it, until you want to fight someone with a proper army. Anyways, I suspect that Town Watchmen are at the core of several strange/annoying C2C issues.

Hmm, that might be a bit off-topic. I'll post it in the bug/issue forum.

The AI is not immune to the limits, they just have better modifiers than you do (when you are playing at Emperor) so they can exceed them by more and handle the results. It's not unlimited though by any means. You WILL see AIs break apart though REV later in the game.

It makes it much harder to dominate the early game (at higher difficulties) but you can still come from behind later. This is really necessary to make the higher difficulties actually harder, since the effect is to boost the AI economically and make it much more competitive for nearby territory. It's military ability still sucks, which is why com-from behind I still possible later.

If you check the AI logs you can see thing like what science rates, what costs and what incomes the AI has (as well as happiness etc.). You'll generally find the big ones are having to lower their science rates somewhat (they'll still have bigger totally than you mot likely until much later, but they are often running significantly reduced science rates to pay for their expansion)
 
I understand how the difficulty settings work. But the revolution situation in C2C seems VERY different to how it is in other mods I've played that also include the revolution system. There've been none at all, even as the Celts have swallowed several other civilisations whole. And aside from that, the AI seems far too keen on building town watchmen, to the detriment of its ability to attack or defend.

Am I misunderstanding how the Policing promotion prevents revolutions?
 
I understand how the difficulty settings work. But the revolution situation in C2C seems VERY different to how it is in other mods I've played that also include the revolution system. And the AI seems far too keen on building town watchmen, to the detriment of anything else.

Am I misunderstanding how the Policing promotion prevents revolutions?

You are.

It's just that I did a LOT of work on making the AI understand REV a lot better, and the C2C AI is much better than the AND one at avoiding revolutions jut for that reason - it has no additional cheats or modifiers that the AND system did not have.
 
Am I misunderstanding how the Policing promotion prevents revolutions?
It does not prevent but does add another layer for stability control. REV is different in C2C. You will need to adjust your play accordingly.

JosEPh
 
You are.

It's just that I did a LOT of work on making the AI understand REV a lot better, and the C2C AI is much better than the AND one at avoiding revolutions jut for that reason - it has no additional cheats or modifiers that the AND system did not have.

Ah, I see. Perhaps you've taught it so well that it no longer needs all the cheats and modifiers it does currently have!

It does not prevent but does add another layer for stability control. REV is different in C2C. You will need to adjust your play accordingly.

JosEPh

Adjust my play how? I can't stop a civilisation on the other side of the world from growing exponentially in Ancient/Classic. And stability isn't something that really troubles my own empire. I'm held back by the gold cost.
 
It reduces Crime, which reduces REV. So indirectly yes it does help.

The policing promotion reduces crime. But it also reduces chance of revolution by 10% per level of the policing promotion. Or at least that's what it claims to do. That's the aspect of the promotion that I was concerned with.
 
The policing promotion reduces crime. But it also reduces chance of revolution by 10% per level of the policing promotion. Or at least that's what it claims to do. That's the aspect of the promotion that I was concerned with.

Yes, but does that stack? If it does then that is a large problem.
 
Yes, but does that stack? If it does then that is a large problem.

I don't know if it stacks. It's hard to tell as a player, beyond the huge pile of town watchmen the AI has in every city and the complete lack of revolutions. From what I've been told it's considered working as intended though.
 
Historically, there was a sort of sliding scale between Absolute Monarchy and Constitutional Monarchy, with the monarch's powers slowly being chipped away over the centuries. Queen Victoria had rather more say in things than our current Queen (who has almost none, really), and her predecessors more yet.

That slow decline on Monarchistic power probably first became noticeable with Magna Carta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta) in 1215, which theoretically (and along with a few other things that were going on around that time) ended the monarch as all-powerful despot. That'd make a great World Wonder, btw. (Perhaps reducing anarchy time for some sorts of civics? Or improving noble specialists.)
There have always been power struggles between monarchs and nobles (or whatever their titles/names were in the different societies) and the amount of power has varied a lot. From puppet kings to absolute rulers (just look at the absolute French monarchs of the 17th century), from lots of nobles ruling their own little space to central power.
The English case has been a slow decline on average and European monarchs are pure figureheads nowadays but if you look back just a hundred years that was different.
 
The policing promotion reduces crime. But it also reduces chance of revolution by 10% per level of the policing promotion. Or at least that's what it claims to do. That's the aspect of the promotion that I was concerned with.

Ah sorry - I didn't realise the policing promotion (as opposed to the base unit) gave a direct stability mod. My guess (I haven't checked) would be that since that is an original ROM/AND modifier it stacks additively within a unit (i.e. - the way the promotions stack) rather than multiplicatively, which could indeed be an issue. The big question is how it stacks from multiple units (should just take the highest). I'll look into this and see...
 
Ah sorry - I didn't realise the policing promotion (as opposed to the base unit) gave a direct stability mod. My guess (I haven't checked) would be that since that is an original ROM/AND modifier it stacks additively within a unit (i.e. - the way the promotions stack) rather than multiplicatively, which could indeed be an issue. The big question is how it stacks from multiple units (should just take the highest). I'll look into this and see...

Healer promotions don't stack, ie you only get the benefit from one promotion no matter how many units have the same promotion. It seems right for revolution countering as well.
 
The policing promotion reduces crime. But it also reduces chance of revolution by 10% per level of the policing promotion. Or at least that's what it claims to do. That's the aspect of the promotion that I was concerned with.

Is that from cultural revolt or the Rev revolt mechanism? I've never known which.
 
I don´t really get Arkenor´s point. Emperor is intended to be difficult to play. It just should be normal that the AI gets big empires if it is undisturbed. I think it is really great that Koshling improved the AI so much that this is happening, great that they are building the Town Watchmen they need.

If I can´t cope on Emperor I have to play a lower difficulty (great that we are at that point again!).
 
+1

JosEPh
 
Ah sorry - I didn't realise the policing promotion (as opposed to the base unit) gave a direct stability mod. My guess (I haven't checked) would be that since that is an original ROM/AND modifier it stacks additively within a unit (i.e. - the way the promotions stack) rather than multiplicatively, which could indeed be an issue. The big question is how it stacks from multiple units (should just take the highest). I'll look into this and see...

Thankyou. I'll be interested to learn what you discover regarding whether it stacks with multiple units!!

In AND revolution prevention from units was a promotion bonus that could only be gained by great generals, and units with attached warlords, so it would have been very difficult to cover your entire empire with it. Granting it to a cheap unit in C2C may have had unforeseen consequences. Even if it doesn't stack, it still seems odd to have such a previously rare and powerful ability on a promotion granted to cheap ubiquitous units.
 
I don´t really get Arkenor´s point. Emperor is intended to be difficult to play. It just should be normal that the AI gets big empires if it is undisturbed. I think it is really great that Koshling improved the AI so much that this is happening, great that they are building the Town Watchmen they need.

If I can´t cope on Emperor I have to play a lower difficulty (great that we are at that point again!).

Arkenor is pointing out that there may be a bug with how policing promotions are handled. If the REV bonuses there are stacking between units that is a bug which should be fixed.
 
It would be easy to fix. The Healing values are boiled down to the best in the stack in CvUnit::heal() and this makes for a great example that I refer to often for setting up similar 'best of' behaviors. The method would be good to apply to this revolt resistance ability.

BUT, this is assuming that this part of the REV mechanism is handled in the dll.
 
Ok, I checked the code, and I think it's fine. The key points are:

1) It takes the modifier from the best unit in the plot (i.e. - highest modifier), so they do NOT stack across units

2) It has no effect anyway on REV-based revolts, only on culture-based ones.
 
Ok, I checked the code, and I think it's fine. The key points are:

1) It takes the modifier from the best unit in the plot (i.e. - highest modifier), so they do NOT stack across units

2) It has no effect anyway on REV-based revolts, only on culture-based ones.

Maybe our text display should somehow indicate this to avoid any future confusion?

Thanks for verifying those things Koshling!
 
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