Draknith
King
I can see it both ways. The reason I would choose the Drill I is because I will build more melee units, and therefore the promotion goes across a larger section of my army than just the swords.
City Raider for Swords or Drill for all Melee units?
- Thread starter StrategeryBush
- Start date
That's just a mistake on your part. Don't promote your units until you're actually going to use them.
Getting CR II Swords out is going to be effective against any AI until they get Longbows up. That's a pretty big window. Especially since a few victories can get them up to CR III very fast.
Bh
StrategeryBush
Warlord
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- 205
A good point, particularly for offensive units. I had not thought of that.
I have found that fortified axes eat CRII swords for breakfast and lunch, it often takes three swords to eliminate one Axe. If the AI is using only archers in defense, then swords rule. Otherwise, with enough Catapults you can take cities with any sort of melee unit, but a pure sword rush is rough against an AI with bronze and any significant culture.
DigitalBoy
Emperor
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- Jun 29, 2006
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Axemen are cheaper and better unless enemies have no copper/iron, in which case they're dead meat anyway.
CR II Sword vs CG I Archer:
6 vs 3 *(1 + .5 + .25 + .2 - .45)= 4,5.
CR I Axe vs CG I Archer:
5 vs 3 *(1 + .5 + .25 + .2 - .2) = 5,25.
CR II Sword vs C I Axe:
6 vs 5*(1 + .5 + .25 + .1 - .45) = 7.
CR I Axe vs C I Axe:
5 vs 5*(1 + .5 + .25 + .1 - .5 - .2) = 5,75.
5:5,75 > 6:7.
Axes are better against melee than swords, even one promo behind. Add the drill for a little extra joy.
But, if planning to RUSH wit hthose swords, CR might be better short-term wise.
In these calculations, you forgot to include the swordsman's unit-inherent +10% city attack, which puts the axeman in the third example at 6.5 strength. 6/6.5 > 5/5.75
Which unit do you want for city raiding?
6
+55% city attack
5
+20% city attack
+50% vs. melee
0-1 first strike
The swordsman with the extra city raider promotion is better at attacking cities, even when axemen are defending. The swordsman's extra strength point outweights the extra +15% the axeman gets against melee.
In these calculations, you forgot to include the swordsman's unit-inherent +10% city attack, which puts the axeman in the third example at 6.5 strength. 6/6.5 > 5/5.75
Which unit do you want for city raiding?
6
+55% city attack
5
+20% city attack
+50% vs. melee
0-1 first strike
The swordsman with the extra city raider promotion is better at attacking cities, even when axemen are defending. The swordsman's extra strength point outweights the extra +15% the axeman gets against melee.
What I don't see in all this is the fact that the bonus applies to all future units you build too. That includes macemen. If you just take the CR bonus your future swords will get it too, but if you choose the Drill your macemen, axemen, spears and many UUs will get it. I prefer the drill option for this reason.
I never promote my swordsmen until I get to the target. Swordsmen built but not promoted get the CR1 from the quest so they can be CR2 right away. It doesn't take long for them to earn the 2exp needed for CR3.
Build BOTH swords and axes when going to war. Building just one of them is an invitation to disaster. Any successful campaign should involve a mixed stack. True you can gamble a bit on the Ai not having horses and forgo spears. I tend to wage well planned wars rather than rushes. Equipping my stacks with 2 archers/1spear/1combat1-shock axe for each city i plan to take and keep. Yes, it takes much longer to build up for war. but I build the units while I am researching cats. Then whip/chop the cats and move slowly but surely through my victim. Unless i am boxed in early, I rarely go to war without the key economic techs of CoL and currency.
Build BOTH swords and axes when going to war. Building just one of them is an invitation to disaster. Any successful campaign should involve a mixed stack. True you can gamble a bit on the Ai not having horses and forgo spears. I tend to wage well planned wars rather than rushes. Equipping my stacks with 2 archers/1spear/1combat1-shock axe for each city i plan to take and keep. Yes, it takes much longer to build up for war. but I build the units while I am researching cats. Then whip/chop the cats and move slowly but surely through my victim. Unless i am boxed in early, I rarely go to war without the key economic techs of CoL and currency.
Melon Head
Warlord
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- Sep 6, 2006
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- 134
I guess I never really thought about using CR 3 swords for offense before maces; I usually have one early war with axes asap, but this often happens before I get iron working. I suppose if I were ReX'ing, and then had a swords/cats army that would be pretty strong.
Bhuric, you say you upgrade your CR3 swords to CR3 maces. Where do you get the cash to do so? I find upgrading to be far too expensive before the mid-game when my economy really starts rolling and I have the chance at GM's via caste and economics.
Bhuric, you say you upgrade your CR3 swords to CR3 maces. Where do you get the cash to do so? I find upgrading to be far too expensive before the mid-game when my economy really starts rolling and I have the chance at GM's via caste and economics.
If I know I have an immediate use for them, I'll drop my research for a few turns to pool some gold. You don't need to upgrade them all at once, just enough to be able to win the first couple "strong defender" fights. Once you are fighting the weaker defenders, the CR III Swordsmen will still be very effective. And then you can use the gold you get from capturing cities to fund more Macemen upgrades.
Bh
Bh
Kerran
Chieftain
An added benefit of not promoting the stack (except defender units) is that if you get collateral damage on the way to the enemy city, having promotions available will heal it up a bit. Fewer turns spent healing up to fuill strength = fewer turns for the AI to whip in more defenders 
Theocracy with slavery is the best early warring civic combo available, I'm usually running it long BEFORE researching CS and Machinery.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
First off, Bhruics statements make a lot of sense. Problem is, I'm not really going to have any XPcivics until the swordsman window is over...
Oh, right, sorry, but I guess I use swords too seldom to remember that tiny bonus. Now remember, this is attacking a city - the swords have a minor bonus with one promotion more. Wow. If you drag those 6 swords from the quest with CRII along, I am pretty sure the CI Axe will come out at ya instead. then the odds are:
CRI Axe vs CI Axe:
5 vs 5.5
CRII Sword vs CI Axe:
6 : (1 + .5) = 4 vs 5.5
In these calculations, you forgot to include the swordsman's unit-inherent +10% city attack, which puts the axeman in the third example at 6.5 strength. 6/6.5 > 5/5.75
Which unit do you want for city raiding?
6
+55% city attack
5
+20% city attack
+50% vs. melee
0-1 first strike
The swordsman with the extra city raider promotion is better at attacking cities, even when axemen are defending. The swordsman's extra strength point outweights the extra +15% the axeman gets against melee.
Oh, right, sorry, but I guess I use swords too seldom to remember that tiny bonus. Now remember, this is attacking a city - the swords have a minor bonus with one promotion more. Wow. If you drag those 6 swords from the quest with CRII along, I am pretty sure the CI Axe will come out at ya instead. then the odds are:
CRI Axe vs CI Axe:
5 vs 5.5
CRII Sword vs CI Axe:
6 : (1 + .5) = 4 vs 5.5
troytheface
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,262
Take City Raider and attack and win or lose with those swords.
Skip the idea of promoting them and use them til they are dead and produce a Great General for later. (is what i do)
Skip the idea of promoting them and use them til they are dead and produce a Great General for later. (is what i do)
AluminumKnight
Conquistador
Yes, if your enemy is defending with only axes, it would be better to build axes yourself. The thing about swords is that they are much better than axes against archers/chariots, both in the field and in cities.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
But if your enemy hasn't got metal for axes, he's dead meat even against axes. If he has horses, bring spears... Axes are cheaper than swords to compensate for the slightly higher strength. Only time where the higher base strength really plays in is in defense, which you are not going to do.
Besides, a bit offtopic, played the start of a game as Boudica, randomed, where I start next to Stalin, who is in the situation that he has no copper, but horses. I brought axes and spears (later when Iron rolled around gallics, but he was beaten by then), and found a nice trick against enemy settler stacks, which they compose of chariot/warrior to protect the chariot from spears - simply promote spears to shock and chariot will be chosen to defend, unless the warrior is combat II or defensive territory - strengths will be like this:
bare land:
chariot: 4 : 2 = 2
Warrior: 2 :1,25 = 1,6
Warrior (CI): 2: 1,05 = 1,9
Warrior (Hill): 2
this makes for effective countering of chariots without having to kill off the warrior first, while maintaing safe odds (axe vs chariot is 5v4, much more risky).
DigitalBoy
Emperor
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- Jun 29, 2006
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- 1,346
Wow? Yes, wow. The +10% on top of the +25% for city raider is huge. Not even the axeman's melee bonus is going to redeem itself in face of a whooping +35% city attack. And the AI is also going to have archers and mounted units. You'd have a case with just ordinary swordsmen, but the free promotion easily gives them the advantage in attacking cities, which is where the hard combat against AIs usually is.
Which is why you include a few combat (and ideally shock) promoted axemen for stack defense. You always do this, even with axemen. You usually also have terrain defense from hills and forests working in your favor.
Spears get intercepted by archers. Axes may have to fight battles against archers and mounted units with shaky odds, where the swordsman would have had an easy victory. Funny that the 5 hammer difference is significant, but the axemen you lose to archers that would have been dog chow for swords isn't.
If I wanted to micromanage and maximize the benefit for attacking enemies, I would go for the CR upgrade. Make lots of Swords, upgrade later.
The problem with that strategy is that it requires you to make and maintain a heck of a lot of Swordsmen - and they're really only good for attacking cities. if you don't plan on attacking cities after you get the units, don't get the CR bonus. Sound simple, I guess.
Drill is a weaker, but more versatile. You get it on all your units, so you don't need to make Swords ASAP before the unit becomes obsolete. You can postpone making your war machine until Maces and the effect will be the same. Less micromanagement. It'll also get put on your Axes, so you retain some benefit for the effect on stack defense - that is, your stack defense will be better.
On the whole, I think the two are somewhat comparable depending on what you want to do. Extra CR on a CR2 Swordsman and CR2 Maceman is nice and all, but it's not really all that necessary - it's already quite likely to win as is. I think that Drill on all your melee can help you win a losing situation - that's its real value in comparison.
The problem with that strategy is that it requires you to make and maintain a heck of a lot of Swordsmen - and they're really only good for attacking cities. if you don't plan on attacking cities after you get the units, don't get the CR bonus. Sound simple, I guess.
Drill is a weaker, but more versatile. You get it on all your units, so you don't need to make Swords ASAP before the unit becomes obsolete. You can postpone making your war machine until Maces and the effect will be the same. Less micromanagement. It'll also get put on your Axes, so you retain some benefit for the effect on stack defense - that is, your stack defense will be better.
On the whole, I think the two are somewhat comparable depending on what you want to do. Extra CR on a CR2 Swordsman and CR2 Maceman is nice and all, but it's not really all that necessary - it's already quite likely to win as is. I think that Drill on all your melee can help you win a losing situation - that's its real value in comparison.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
@Digital: I am thinking a rush. Sure, you might bring a few axes on top of the sixa swords. Now what do you do when the AI has built a wall on those 5 turns? And by rush I mean rush. Enemy hasn't got both copper/iron units, archers and mounted units, then you might aswell wait for catties.
I'm surprised to see so many people here arguing for drill. Drill 1 is so weak, it's not even funny. The only reason to get Drill 1 is if you're hoping to eventually get drill 3 and 4. and since your melee units CAN'T, I don't see the point. I mean, it's only going to improve their combat chances by about 2% in most situations.
Melee units upgrade to gunpowder units, which CAN get more promotions.
In any case, I don't see the point of upgrading CR2 or CR3 melees anyway any further, particularly if you're going to use Cats to do most of the damage anyways. In that case, the improvement is frequently even less than 2% - from 98% to 99+% success. A CR3 unit is already extremely powerful for its intended purpose. It doesn't need more help. One can even argue that even a CR2 unit is already so powerful that the impact of CR3 frequently is more ego than function.
However, stack defense units are not so lucky. You can't focus all your stack defense countering one unit or you just get mopped up by other units. For that situation, every little bit helps. If you find yourself defending an attack stack, a stack of varied melee units, all with Drill 1 is a great deal better than a stack of Macemen all with CR3.
In any case, I don't see the point of upgrading CR2 or CR3 melees anyway any further, particularly if you're going to use Cats to do most of the damage anyways. In that case, the improvement is frequently even less than 2% - from 98% to 99+% success. A CR3 unit is already extremely powerful for its intended purpose. It doesn't need more help. One can even argue that even a CR2 unit is already so powerful that the impact of CR3 frequently is more ego than function.
However, stack defense units are not so lucky. You can't focus all your stack defense countering one unit or you just get mopped up by other units. For that situation, every little bit helps. If you find yourself defending an attack stack, a stack of varied melee units, all with Drill 1 is a great deal better than a stack of Macemen all with CR3.
I once got that quest while playing Rome in the Earth 18 civs scenario. man that was probably the best thing to happen to me ever lol. I think the benefit that CRI would have immediately greatly outweighs anyone "eventually" getting around to somehow promoting all of their old axes/swords to drill 4 . If any of them even get above 10xp, most of that will be wiped and will have to be re-earned. how many people here actually get Drill 3 or 4 after receiving this quest?
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