We put a limit on Steel Mills specifically to keep the number of Steel resources from getting out of control. Most resources are either limited by the number of appearances on the map or are produced by National/World Wonders, but Steel Mills (also Oil Refineries, but we're not messing with that right now) had no such limits.
City vicinity dependent wonders
- Thread starter Nimek
- Start date
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
One way to fix the Oil refineries problem, would be to make each modern age unit that uses a 'Fuel' to power it, use 1 Oil resource. Or maybe scale to map, 3 - 5 per oil resource.
That way, you limit the spamming of huge armies, make the resource more realistic in use and strategic in application, and the Oil refinery has an actual purpose to being built.
An off the top of my head comment, needs working.
That way, you limit the spamming of huge armies, make the resource more realistic in use and strategic in application, and the Oil refinery has an actual purpose to being built.
An off the top of my head comment, needs working.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
If I'm not mistaken oil refinery can be built only near rivers. So there's not any oil products proliferation, as far as I can see.
Are you referring to just cities, or X buildings in general? I have some thoughts on both. In general, I think Palace-type Wonders should probably have a small minimum number of cities, or else the bonus from the extra government center isn't enough to justify being a Wonder. Secondly, if a Wonder is going to provide a free building of type X, it should require a certain number of building X's (or come along later on the tech tree) or the first civ that gets the tech can rush the Wonder and make the X building meaningless.
45°38'N-13°47'E;13792752 said:
That is true, but rivers are pretty common on a lot of map types and it's possible to get double-digit quantities of Oil Products out of one Oil. It just seems a little incongruous; I'm not going to make a big deal out of it. I think that the biggest check on Oil Products is that there are no corporations that rely on it. As far as I can tell, trading and corporations are the times when having multiple copies of a resource becomes valuable, and any civilization with Oil access can build their own Refineries. I rarely trade resources, especially manufactured ones.
Probably more the X buildings, but some issues I have apply to both of these restrictions. In response to Nimek's idea that e.g. Pyramids should require 5 Stoneworker's Huts, dblblk suggested that it'd be unfair for small Civs with a highly productive city. I agree.
Again, a small Civ is disadvantaged. If you require 5 of building Y to build wonder Z which provides Y in all cities, there's no point at all in building the Wonder if you've five or fewer cities. A small Civ therefore can't gain from this Wonder.
I don't like this building-count for the same reason I don't like the 4-Wonder limit: it's entirely arbitrary. If the Steelworks should be limited in number, then I'd prefer that it had some more significant malus, such as unhealthiness or maintenance cost or ...? Something which means that it's not desirable to build it everywhere. Or eliminate its production and commerce bonuses (put them on the Factory or elsewhere if necessary), then it'd be like the Brewery: now that I've thought of it, why isn't it like the Brewery or Paper Mill or Cement Factory or all the other National Wonders which provide resources? Was it, once?
Same could apply for Oil Refinery.
The reason why I originally chimed in on this thread was because I wanted to express my preference for SOME non-arbitrary mechanism to replace the Wonder count limit. That's all. It's fine if it goes nowhere, perhaps some useful ideas will come out of it...
I often give them to friends to get the diplomacy bonus for supplying them with resources. Particularly almost useless things like Paper or Glassware or alcohol which you always have a few spare of!Vokarya said:
Cheers, A.
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 466
I agree.I can't find an actual reason for having so many oil products since no corporations need them nor someone usually trades so many quantities.
I also rarely trade manufactured resources.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
If you have an AI as a team mate, they'll trade you a copy of their Oil Products / Steel once a turn, every turn, until they only have one left. I've seen it time and time again
If you don't ever end up with a Permanent Alliance with one though, you'll probably never experience that eagerness to toss artificially made resources around - and thank heavens for that, since it's terribly annoying!
As far as Wonders that require city counts, there are only three World Wonders that have city counts:
- Apadana Palace requires 8 cities on Standard size. This is way too high for a Wonder that only requires Ancient Era techs. I think this could be cut in half without any problems. It is a Government Center wonder, so I think a city count is appropriate.
- Edinburgh Castle requires 4 cities on Standard. This is fine, as this is a Medieval Era Government Center wonder.
- Pont du Gard requires 4 cities on Standard. I don't think this needs a city requirement at all. Its primary effect is a continent-wide health bonus, and so I don't see anything wrong with giving the bonus to a smaller number of cities. What do you think about cutting this requirement?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Pont du Gard is just an oversized Aquaduct isn't it? I don't think it needs a city requirement personally, but Government Center styled wonders it makes sense.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I 100% agree with you
It doesn't need one. The effects aren't so gigantic that they need any additional limits. +2 health on the same continent is the only "world" effect. The other effects are fairly incidental and aren't out of line with just about any other WW (+1 health/+2 with Public Works, +1 culture, +2 Engineer GPP).
Moving onto the Wonders with total building requirements, I made a list of all said Wonders (except Guilds) and what I think we can do about them.
All numbers are for Standard size maps.
Let me know what you think here.
All numbers are for Standard size maps.
- Ascension Gate: Requires 6 Paradise Garden. I'm thinking we should leave this one alone, because it is a victory condition. Scientific Victory in general looks like it needs some help to differentiate it from Space Race Victory.
- Circus Maximus: Requires 4 Stable. This has caused more issues than any other Wonder with a building requirement because of how quickly Knight's Stable shows up to replace it. I think we should just reduce it to Stable or Knight's Stable in the building city.
- Dinosaur Park/Pleistocene Park: Requires 4 Cloning Laboratory and 4 Zoo. I put both of these requirements in to represent having enough of a base to build something with the requirements of one of the parks. I could cut it back to just Cloning Lab and Zoo in the building city.
- Dosan Seowon: Requires 6 University. Dosan Seowon is barely more than a National Wonder. It lacks any real "world" effects to make it a true World Wonder. On top of that, 6 Universities is pretty high. I think removing the University requirement would not harm it at all.
- Edinburgh Castle: Requires 3 Castle. I think we can cut the Castle requirement. It already requires 4 Cities (varying by map size) and High Walls.
- Great Library: Requires 2 Library. This is small enough that it can be left alone.
- Las Vegas Strip: Requires 4 Casino. This could probably be cut back to just Casino in the building city. (I do want to keep the Desert requirement. Like SnowCastle of Kemi, it rewards you for having a city in a less-than-optimal location.)
- Madison Avenue: Requires 6 Advertising Agency. I put this requirement in because Madison Avenue does provide a free Advertising Agency to every city, but I'm not thinking it is so necessary any more.
- Plato's Academy: Requires 4 School of Scribes. This is more complicated than it looks (School is a big investment early on) and I think it is responsible for the Academy appearing later than it should. I think cutting it back to SoS in the building city is enough.
- Silk Road: Requires 4 Bazaar. This is another requirement where I'm not sure how necessary it is.
- Statue of Liberty: Requires 1 Steel Mill. If there is a difference between this and just requiring a Steel resource, it is so subtle that I doubt it would come up in more than one game out of a thousand. The Steel Mill requirement does increase to 2 on larger maps, but I don't think building one statue would require the output of more than one Steel Mill. I think it would be much cleaner to just require 1 Steel resource.
- The Agency: Requires 4 Intelligence Agency. This is like Madison Avenue; maybe just IA in the building city is enough?
- Theatre of Dionysus: Requires 4 Theatre. This has almost identical stats to Globe Theatre, except coming earlier and is a World Wonder. I think we can cut this down to just Theatre in the building city.
Let me know what you think here.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
- Dinosaur Park/Pleistocene Park: I personally like the concept of requiring 4+4, it makes sense. If you think it's too much, reduce it to 3+3.
- Madison Avenue, The Agency and every other wonder that provides free buildings: I would prefer to have a building requirement for all these. Early in the game I always rush for Stonehenge for example and I never-ever-never have built a single Monument / Standing stones. I think these type of wonders should all have a requirement of the building they provide. Maybe 3 on standard size is not too big to hurt but big enough too make sense.
Where the change is from "requires X of building Y" to "requires Y in this city", I definitely agree.
I agree.
Hi.
I noticed in my current game that many National Wonders have city number requirements - I can't build any of them because they require 7 cities (map size dependency I presume), and I have 6 (which is in the upper quartile as far as Civs go - there are many 1&2-city Civs and just a few with more than 5 cities).
The Law School and Medicine School, Globe Theatre, Oxford (!) and several others are all unavailable, unfortunately. I understand for the Summer Palace, but the others... Hmmm.
Cheers, A.
I noticed in my current game that many National Wonders have city number requirements - I can't build any of them because they require 7 cities (map size dependency I presume), and I have 6 (which is in the upper quartile as far as Civs go - there are many 1&2-city Civs and just a few with more than 5 cities).
The Law School and Medicine School, Globe Theatre, Oxford (!) and several others are all unavailable, unfortunately. I understand for the Summer Palace, but the others... Hmmm.
Cheers, A.
What's your world size?
Large, according to the Victory Conditions (F8) advisor's 'Settings' panel.
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