Civ 3 GOTM#4 *Spoiler* talks

In my game there was quite a lot of naval warfare with more modern ships. I had about 20 battleships guarding transports and doing shore bombardments during my invasions of the Persians and Aztecs. They both had a like number of Battleships plus many destroyers and even a few aircraft carriers. Once my troops had landed there was quite a lot of fighting going on in the high seas. They were both at war with each other, so it was a 3 way battle, quite interesting. The first game I have played where building a navy mattered much at all. I tend to play on larger landmass settings. It does seem that pre-modern navies serve little purpose though. It's just a crapshoot as to who is going to win each battle.
 
Well I finished with a domination victory in 1585AD so no one has to worry about me getting high score and they never will cause I can't imagine playing all the way to 2050. I'm pretty sure that the conquest on the last turn is a pretty good general strategy for getting big scores on most maps.

I ended up with about 100 cities cause I never razed a single city, of course, lost a few cities with populations of 1 on the way.

Since this was an archipelago map I assumed that domination would be the way to go for my style of play, so I would not have to chase start ups all over the map and play to the year 2050.

I had some of those typical battles that just make you shake your head like; the Aztec spearman who stood up to three knights, the two Man O War that slid into the drink trying to take out a single caravel and the 10 or 12 cannon shots that only got 2 hits to soften the Persian capital. However, I must admit that my opponents lost a lot more units than I did. :)

When I first met the French they had a warrior and a settler on the move. I tried to trade with them but they would not trade anything and would only offer 10 for my pottery. Well, I declared war and won the battle. They chased my ailing warrior all the way home with 5 warriors and kept sending more. By the time they got to my capitol I had a spearman and a couple of warriors. They were never able to break my defense else I guess I would not be making this post. Their early war effort must have taken up alot of their resources and they eventually just toned the war down. I could see though that I was losing the tech war to them and they seemed to build wonders at will. I didn't build a choke point city until fairly late, I just positioned a spearman at the choke point until I was ready to occupy that fairly barren piece of dirt. That was the beginning of the end of the French though. I took the French out of the game around 280AD. I did get a great leader from those battles with the French so I was able to make the Light House (which allowed me to meet all the opponents). I never did build that many swordsmen because I like the mobility of the horsemen.

The Zulus were starting to take up space on the islands to the south so they were next on the hit list, the war with the Zulus at 410AD. I finished them off about 740AD (without any more Great Leaders) and changed to Monarchy to go after the Aztecs. I chose the Aztecs cause I wanted to get some position on the Persians who were in the lead on points at this time but I was closing the gap fast. The Aztecs were able to hold on longer than I expected but I did get a couple of Great Leaders from those battles. Finished the Aztecs off about 1295AD. The Indians were not much of a problem but I think Delhi flipped 3 times due to their cultural lead over me but I just reclaimed it each time it flipped. That took me to about 1360AD.

While all this was going on I was filling up as much other space on the map as I could. Mostly using this type of land grab to keep the Persians from getting a widespread foothold.

The Persians were definitely going to be the most severe of the battles. I first took the city nearest to the Zulu's Island, which was on an island itself in 1410AD. This got them to get into the mode to make peace with me, we had been at war for many years but they could not reach me with any worth while forces. As I positioned myself for the final battles I signed a Right of Passage with them. I was able to land from the Zulu's Island and the Aztec Island at the same time and dropped my units on their critical resources. Then I just keep moving units onto their Island until I was ready to declare war. During that time I also positioned units at other choke points on their island to cut their mobility down. Then I made a trade for what ever I could get out of them before declaring war. I took their strategic resources so they could not replace their lost units with high grade units. I was able to take out about five of their cities on the first passin 1555AD and stabilize my positions. I got magnetism about this time so my Light House effects were gone and I needed to upgrade all my caravels, this gave the Persians a few extra turns to hang on but the result was already obvious.

I don't raze cities or occupy them until I have captured all that civilization's cities; sometimes the unit that captures the city can't get out right away but that's the price of war if it culture flips the next turn. First of all ,that provides your units with some zones were they can heal and it provides mobility for your advancing units. If the city flips then just take it back again. You don't lose units to flips and you don't spend you units trying to deal with resistors. Furthermore, you get to salvage the population and maybe some city improvements. Of course I try to not leave an easy path for the opponent to just waltz back into the city but then again I don't sacrifice units to try and stop them. Also, if the city has walls I sell them if possible and I remember. Anyway, once you take the opponent totally out you then deal with the resistors while your troops heal and you don't have to worry about culture flips cause they no longer have any civilization. Now there might be alot of unhappiness in some cities but in that case, starvation will eventually balance out to the cities general mood, so be it.

I kept pounding the Persians till 1580 AD and then sued for peace and left them with two cities. Domination win next turn.

Now I have to figure out how to play the current version of CIV III, which appears to be for the best overall.

Cartouche Bee
 
Originally posted by marshalljames
In order to win this game you have to eliminate the french right away.And the only way you can know that is by reloading.If you do not stay in a constant war/peace with them and take their advances in treaties you'l get so far behind it's not funny.
I may even go further to say that anyone who submits a winning score cheated.

Marshalljames

I agree. Bring on the MP, & we'll get to see who is really good.
 
Judge: "Do you sweat to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?"
Matrix (with hand on chest): "So help me God."

I did not reload and I have destroyed the French!!

I wanted to wait to post my log, but when you come with remarks like this I feel I must post some of it now. But this is not the whole log. I'm at 1973 AD now, but that's a log of 6 pages. :rolleyes: So I'll attach that.

Matrix’ English log

4000 BC
Though I’m a worthless Civ3 player compared to the others, I’m still gonna give it a shot towards this emperor game.

The starting location looks good; luxury just near the first city, which is going to be built…right now.

1000 BC
It’s very easy to forget to keep up this log. A few turns back (about 10) I discovered Iron Working. I went straight to that after discovering that I’m alone with the French on one continent. They need to be wiped out as soon as possible. In any case I was very relieved when I saw there is actually iron near me: to the north of London. So it wasn’t hard to figure out where my next city needed to be built. I also built a worker on London straight after the settler. And now I’m working on a road to connect the iron to London.

At first I was afraid the French would build cities through my future empire. But then I realised I built York in the narrow passage so that he can’t get through. I did build my second city there to get to them first. But I was actually smarter than I thought.

The barbarians in the south do not give trouble and soon all that will be mine.

800 BC
I just discovered the wheel and a horse appears to be on a square which already has a road, just under Nottingham. Handy.

670 BC
The road to iron is ready. Now it’s a question in every city between settlers, temples and swordmen.

250 BC
The French landed a settler and a warrior in the south of my continent where is just place for one more city. I’m sending two swordmen already. That city will probably start our war which will end until one of us is off the continent.

210 BC
The French made a step on my terrain (near York ofcourse). I asked to retreat and they declared war. The game’s afoot.

130 BC
The southern French city was easily destroyed (with one warrior) and Newcastle is built in it’s place. Though the French don’t have iron, they do have horsemen, and I don’t. That’s nasty. I could build some chariots to try to eliminate them. Also, this is the first time I’m using the pop-rushing tactic. Pretty neat!

10 BC
Orleans is mine; the first ‘real’ French city taken. Then I went for Paris, but they got 5 spearmen in there! Guess I’ll have to save some swordmen before I start another attack.

170 AD
I was able to use a chariot to remove the road to their horse! That should ease the battle a bit. Furthermore, I’m going to attack Rheims (in the north) instead of Paris. That should be less difficult, especially since Rheims can’t get backup from other cities. Paris is in the middle and also worthlessly located. I think I’ll sack Paris for that and because of it’s high French culture.

300 AD
Successfully captured Paris, because it has Great Wall, The Oracle and Great Library. Now they have 9 restisters plus a very high French culture. I doubt Paris will stay mine.

330 AD
Paris and Rheims is French again. Rheims through culture; Paris through a revolt.

I discovered map making. Let’s see what’s out there.

350 AD
Because I already saw a yellow border to the west of Hastings I went to there. They appeared to be the Zulus. We exchanged world maps (I had to add 10 gold) and saw they’re lonely on one island with only 6 cities. They also appeared to have exchanged territory maps with the French. Now I know all their other cities, off our continent.

420 AD
I got about 6 advances through the Great Library after recapturing Paris. Also, I rushed a temple in Paris after the restisting population was suppressed by about 6 swordmen. Dangerous but smart, I think.

550 AD
The whole continent is mine! Let’s hope it stays this way. In all French cities I’ve tried to eliminate the resistance as quickly as possible and after that I rushed a temple. In the mean time I’ve discovered the Aztec and exchanged maps. They’re in the same situation as the Zulus, but a bit larger. That makes them easy targets.
 
Moderator Action: Removed quote. It's the post above. ;)
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

That is the best story line yet for gotm attempt. You sir are a very good player :goodjob: I frustrated myself before trying what you did. French showed up in south I got pissed and quit!:cry:

I will be looking out for you when MP comes out. :D

Desert Fox :p
 
I'm sorry, I'm new here, so I guess you guys wouldn't recognize my sarcasm yet. Maybe I should have included a :rolleyes: in my post. A good player can win on Emperor no matter what the situation. On Deity, however, I think this same game would have been nearly impossible. I just don't like whining.
 
Smilies are usually perfect for that job, Rhyannus. ;)

Anyway, my game is finished and I won (histographically)! :yeah: I really thought I'd be able to win on emperor, but here it is...

As I said before I've kept a log. It a 7,5 pages long story of the most fun game I've ever had! :) But also by far the longest one. :eek:
 
Just read your log Matrix, sounds like you had a very interesting game. Congratulations on your victory! So many revolutions though, just stay in Despotism next time. ;) Monarchy is also a good government if you have a large army and still are at war.
 
i agree with aeson matrix, far too many revolutions - and you weren't even religious! :nono:

also you'd probably have been a lot better rushing the Forbidden Palace with your leader, especially as you were trying to run some non-whipping governments there. nice victory though



one thing that happened in my game that was interesting was that i built the Hanging Gardens (neither expansionistic or commercial) and got a golden age from it! it was the only wonder i built by that point though i did capture thr Pyramids, Great Library and Collossus (which is expansionistic and commercial) off the french.

this leads me to think one off two things. either
a) the hanging gardens is actually industrial, expansionistic and commercial but wrongly mentioned
b) wonders you capture actually count towards your golden age but since the golden_age_start_check is only triggered when you build a wonder, they won't kick in till your next wonder.

anyone have the scoop on this?
-ChumChum
:cooool:
 
This is my first real attempt at a GOTM and I'm not sure I'll have the time to even finish it before the end of the month.

I don't think I've had quite as much trouble as others because I'm still alive but if I do end up winning it'll be a close and hard fought war right to the end. I established the early city to the north and eventually the choke point city...but only after the war with France had alreadyt begun. I killed one of his warriors who was escorting a settler in order to get two workers so I could build infrasctucture faster. The French chased me back to my capital but I used the mountain square and a strong dfense to hold off their attack until they accepted peace. I then established the choke city and filled it with troops...but I had trapped several french units on my side of the continent and felt the need t get rid of them...causing another war....but the choke city held it's ground and I believe now it caused the French to slow their devlopment and thus they only ever built 1 Wonder, the Great Wall (useless). I then spent a very long time building up my half of the continent ( I never had problems with French incursions). Then I built up a horsemen army of about 25 units and effectively destroyed the french, although they had two island cities not worth my attention. Note: I didn't get 1 single leader during the whole French war which I feel has greatly hindered my ability to gain any ground on the other civs. The French not havng useful Wonders hurt as well. I was able to build the Lighthouse but that was the only thing helping my empire.

The Zulus arrived during my war with the French but I recognized right away that they weren't a major player in this game. They weren't aggressive at all because of the size of my army.

I set out to explore the world and found in rapid succession the Indians, Aztecs, and Persians. I denied them communications with each other but that was a mistake because it wasn't too long after that the Indians were able to make their own contact. I was just too slow to make that strategy work effectively. I tried to further develop my empire before taking on the rest ofthe world, but it wasn't meant to be. The Indians were moving way too far ahead in tech and weren't selling enough for me to keep up. I started to create an army of knights to send over but during the military build up I was forced to changed my target to the Persians because they were attempting to expand off their continent too aggressively. I made friends with the Indians instead and created an alliance with them against the hated Persians. So now the Indians will forever be my friends (I hope). The other nations wouldn't join the war at first and instead saw me as a weaker target, that was a mistake on their part....despite having all my power over on the Persian continent they were unable to land enough troops to ever take any of my cities.

So the Persian war was/is a simple strategy. Landed 22 knights beside their capital and crushed it in one turn, razed it cause I knew it would simply flip if I didn't. I have been moving very slowly in my war efforts but like a glacier I just keeping chipping away at 1 city at a time. At my current position in the game all nations are at war with Persia and I'm trying to balance my attacking stack of Knights/Cavalry with establishing cities. The trickiness being that with the Zulus, Aztecs, and Indians sending massive number of troops (mostly inferior) it is difficult to figure out where and how to get settlers into the right places. With the sheer number of caravels, galleons, jaguar warriors, indian elephants, etc, it totally looks and feels like a battle royale. It's 5 full sized nations fighting on only 1 half of the Persian continent....there are bodies everywhere! Strangely the Persians are ignoring me, probably because I don't move around single units, only my single stack of 25+ units. It's a nice balance, I kill cities and my allies handle the raging hordes of Persians. But they grow weaker with every city I raze and their time on this planet is short.

The Zulus are next in my plans but after that I'm thinking I'll have to figure out a way to keep peace the until 2050 and hope for the best.
 
While I don't keep a detailed log like Matrix ;) this was a very interesting game. This game, for me at least, was won or lost by fortuitously taking my scout North instead of South after founding London. Discovering the French and the choke points on the map it was possible to block them from expanding east without starting a war. Also very lucky was that the iron resource was in English hands no matter how you played it - if it were the other way round (Iron far west in French territory) I don't see how anyone could have survived for long. By the time the French were getting uppity about blocking their east expansion, I had swordsmen vs archers and the French were done.
One thing I noticed was that the AI didn't seem to shift strategy for water-based map. After iron I streaked to map making as quickly as possible. Great Lighthouse was absolutely critical for a win, IMHO. While the other Civs were cranking out settlers with no where to go (when I took over one Persian city there were 6! settlers in it) I was populating islands all over the world that didn't start with a Civ. I'm surprised the French didn't respawn on one of these.
I'll have to admit that I'm getting very tired of GOTM. In my desired to max out my score I don't get to play the peaceful game that gets into the modern era - style of play I prefer. I still don't think I've ever known all the techs in any game I've played, yet. All of my games are just crank out tons of the best warrier I can make in huge supply and attack with great force. It appears my tactics will need to change,though, since 1.17 (which I didn't load, yet) finally treats whipping the population correctly. I don't know how I would have won this one without conversion of population into knights :rolleyes:
I won with a surprise domination victory - I had forgotten that this was a possibility. If I had to do it over again I wouldn't have attacked the Aztecs and converted to Democracy after wiping out the Persians (I used the one Great Leader I got to build the forbidden palace in the middle of the Persian island).
Anyway fun and very tough game, won by, I think the luck of turning my scout North instead of South to find the French early and deal with them with the sole iron on the island.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
It does seem that pre-modern navies serve little purpose though. It's just a crapshoot as to who is going to win each battle.
It is written in the guidebook that the defence bonus for sea and ocean squares is 10%. In my games this results in humiliating defeats for the attacker in almost any fight between galleys.
Later on, contrary to civ2, the caravels have a defence better than the attack. Same with galleons. The frigate is the first one with some efficiency in attack, but I very much prefer to wait for the ironclad (though you had better take care if you meet enemy ironclads on your way: same situation as with galleys, the attacker generally loses the fight; the solution is to sail a squadron of 3 or 4).
 
Here is my story of this nice (so far) GOTM.
I played the Civ1 GOTM and the Civ2 GOTM first this month, so I only started this Civ3 GOTM last week.
I´m playing the game fully patched to 1.17f to see how the different strategies work and what changes we have to adjust to. :scan:
And directed at marshalljames :mad:, I did also NOT reload and managed to kill off the French.

The Beginning
I started the game by moving my settler up to the no shield grassland tile and founded London there. Later that turned out to be a good decision because I didn´t only gain a shield but another wheat tile, too!
My scout was sent to the south because of the seemingly vast desert to the north and found CB in the only hut but also another great city location far to the south. That was also were my first settler was directed at, my worker was busy bringing the luxuries into London. A second scout was sent to the north and encountered the French who already had 3 or 4 cities and were 2 techs ahead. :eek:
In the beginning I only discovered 1 or 2 techs by myself, my science rate was at 10% and I bought most of the techs from the French, including Iron Working and Horseback Riding.
That gave me the possibility to build up my army. After all the southern part of the island was settled, excluding the desert isthmus, everything was switched to wartime economy.
I wasn´t an excessive pop-rusher before but with the 1.17f patch it is almost impossible to build an army only with rushed units. My only city which pop rushed horsemen was the southern city due to its great food supply. But after 4 or 5 units and a temple it was over, it didn´t even grow past size 1 without civil disorder (with temple, 1 lux., 1 police). :(
But on the other hand London was producing veteran swordsmen every 4, later every 3 turns! And 2 nearby cities needed 6-8 turns.

The French Campaign
I also blocked the French with a scout at first and later a spearman and the growing army. The French discovered MM several turns before me and as soon as they sent their galley to the isthmus and found a city there I decided that war was at hand. I gave in to one of their demands some time earlier, but when they trespassed into my territory and didn´t want to leave war was declared. :p
I quickly destroyed the newly founded isthmus city and started my campaign. But their horsemen and especially their fortified spearmen stalled the advance considerably. I lost nearly half of my swordsmen before their reinforcement movement slowed down a bit. My continuing reinforcement finally turned the tide in this war and I managed to destroy another 2 cities. I didn´t want them as they were pop-rushed down from size 4-5 to 1 and therefore extremely unhappy and also badly located. The nicer part of this first advance was to gain 3-4 elite units (no barbs to train) and after the 2nd desctruction a GL which I used to rush the Great Library. But what a surprise, I only gained 1 advance from it, the french were by far the most advanced civ of all. In retrospect it probably was a bad decision but I thought on Emperor level they should have a great lead.
Nevertheless the war waged on and after several other heavy losses, including 2 elites, the pop-rush period of the French seemed over, as the counter attacks of their archers and horsies weakened considerably. Now was the time to move on to Paris. A new group of reinforcement together with the remaining units grouped together on the mountain next to Paris and was able to capture it along with the Pyramids. Now that the resistance was more or less broken I only needed 6 swordsmen for 2 other French coastal cities and some more for the 3rd. I captured these cities and was pleasently surprised to gain another GL used for the Great Lighthouse. Peace was made with the French in exchange for a lot of gold, 3 or 4 techs and their second last city. In the same turn they moved 3(!) veteran spearmen out of their last city, I sent 3 elite units to this city and was able to capture it, losing 1 elite. :lol:
So 2 or 3 turns before the ADs the French were annihilated. It really is a shame we have to kill Joan off so early in most games!

The Golden Age
Building the Great Lighthouse didn´t only start my naval domination (hopefully) but also entered my civilization into our Golden Age.
That gave me the possibility to quickly restrengthen my weakened army, build up my navy, explore the world and also build the HG in London as well as other needed city improvements. :goodjob:
At first I discovered the Zulu, then the Indians, Persians and finally the Aztecs. They all had already colonized everything they could reach but weren´t as advanced as I was, thanks to Joan and my Golden Age. I concentrated on my own island and expanded to the archipelago south of it. But somehow the Zulu also got wind of these islands (I didn´t give them my map, I only traded territory but no world maps) and established a small outpost there first. My expansion force quickly settled the remaining spots but seeing even more galleys sailing there I decided it was time for another war. I was still in the Golden Age so I didn´t want to change to Monarchy, but some time later the GA ended and after waiting another 3 turns to finish researching construction (and losing ~100 gold) I went into anarchy.

Stopping the Zulu
Before Anarchy I was able to build up a considerable fleet of galleys which were able to decimate their navy and stopped their means of reaching my island. Taking the Zulu outpost wasn´t a problem at all and after Anarchy was over production could be changed to support the war.
My navy sunk another wave of filled galleys before landing my invasion force. I was able to capture the first city together with 2 catapults and started my siege of Zimbabwe. But the losses were heavy, my horsemen are no real use at all, so I´m probably waiting to get chivalry, but that will take some more turns. The only attacks I´m making right now are with my remaining elite swordsmen and that gave me another GL, I´m not sure what to use it for, yet. ;)
I will probably use it for an army of knights, but maybe also for the Sistine Chapel. I don´t like the idea of building the Forbidden palace on the Zulu island, too much desert and too close to my island.

It is now 500AD and the Zulu war is far from over, more like a stalemate right now.
The other empires have no means of reaching me or each other yet.
And I´m still not first in score, but the others have much bigger cities, can´t do that due to unhappiness.
The craziest thing is that Paris is still 100% unhappy because "of the cruel oppression" I have done to them. Joan decimated them from size 6 to 1 via pop-rushing and over 500 years late they are still unhappy at size 1 with 1 police, 2 lux. and a temple!!! :crazyeyes

I did have some prejudice against this GOTM, Emperor on this kind of map. But when you master your first challenge in at least keeping the French at bay you do have some serious advantages being with them on one continent, especially in science. And the map is really fun although still a bit large for my taste. Hope I can finish in time!
:D
 
Originally posted by Aeson
It does seem that pre-modern navies serve little purpose though. It's just a crapshoot as to who is going to win each battle.
In my game as written above my navy did indeed serve several purposes, not only exploring and colonizing quickly, but especially keeping the Zulu of my island. :p
When the war started they were very eager to visit me but their galleys stopped one tile from my shore and I could destroy them and their cargo. :D
It is indeed difficult to predict a winner but as with all battles in Civ3, you simply need the greater number of units!
 
I also used a combination of Galleys and the Great Lighthouse to good effect on this map. By a navy, I meant ships for actual fighting, not the handful of ships needed for exploration and troop crossings. Those roles are actually served much better pre-modern, as Galleys/Caravels/Galleons have good defensive stats when compared to any available attackers. Until Destroyers show up, there really isn't an efficient form of naval warfare. I'd rather stick to land based fighting where I usually have mortality rates that are 1/4-1/5 what the AI suffers. On the seas, losses are close to 50-50, which doesn't gain the player anything in comparison to the AI being fought, and actually causes the player to lag a bit when compared to any uninvolved AI. Building up a pre-modern navy for actual fighting at sea is a relative waste of production in my experience.
 
With galleys, frigates & ironclads you should always attack with more than one ship. When you win, you win; it's 1-0 for you. But when you're first unit looses, a second can usually finish the job: 1-1. That's the way to fight on sea. :) Always have a vast majority (not overall, but at the location of the battle).
 
That´s what I did with my galley, I had a lot of galleys guarding the way to Zulu island.
Whenever they tried to cross I was able to sink them along with the cargo. :D
So in a way I carried the war to their island.
Without my early navy and those sea battles they would have landed on mine. And it was easier to build some galleys than quickly reposition and restrengthen my army.
 
A major bummer for me, sigh. I'd been really enjoying this GOTM and playing what I thought was the best game of Civ3 I've played yet. I spent longer per turn than ever before, squeezing the most I could out of each turn. Suddenly today, at 1340AD, I get an accidental Domination "victory". I could scream. I've got a pretty decent score but I think it is about 40% of what I would have gotten if I'd avoided this. And I don't get to enjoy the final bit of finishing and polishing, I leave the game in a messy unfinished state. A hollow victory. What especially galls about it is that the better you play, the worse a score this so-called victory can give. If I'd been less clever, had spent 1/3 the time per turn, had reached the same position on the map hundreds of years later, and had then hit the accidental victory, my score would be higher. This victory condition can actually penalize good play.

I'll write more about my game later, just came here to do some moaning to get it off my chest :)
 
Heavy sigh:

I snagged the autosave and replayed the turn, skipping all units to create an end of turn save for submission. Finished the turn and there was no Domination victory.

I've gone back and experimented to find out what makes the difference. It turns out that:
1) If I raze a Persian city and then finish the turn, Domination results.
2) If I do not raze that city, no Domination results.
Razing the city involved does NOT make any difference to my borders, it does not cause my territory to change.

So we can add yet another weirdness to the list of bizarre things about the Domination limit. Domination may or may not be triggered with the exact same territory in your sphere of influence, depending on some other condition on the map.
 
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