I'm sorry I misunderstood your meaning.
I thought you meant I am paid for advertising civ4 in discussion like this and thus a biased voice
I thought you meant I am paid for advertising civ4 in discussion like this and thus a biased voice
civ 3 players will not move on
- Thread starter Ace of Gold
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Concerning Civ 2 caravans I especially liked the ability to add shields to wonders and not to autamatically finishing them. About installing trade routes, I prefer like you the abstract way (best as it was done in CTP but didn´t seem possible because of technical limitations of Civ 4). The merchand marine is something different that gives a lot of life and fun to the seas, an aera that is -for my taste- very neglected in Civ 4.
It´s funny, that nearly at the same time, you made this post, I posted in an other thread at CFC, that MOO I -in my eyes- is a great game. It seems, here we have the same taste.
And I agree that roll-over production in Civ 4 is a progress. I wish they would have done that for Civ 3 too.
If I remember well, the possibility to move units in stacks or even certain types of units on a tile in stacks was implemented to Civ 3 with a patch for PTW. At least these possibilities were integrated to Civ 3 with C3C. It seems, you have left Civ 3 too early or you have never found the proper buttons, what would be a pitty.
But I agree, these hordes of workers are a pest in my eyes. I minimized them to a very small number in my mod for Civ 3.
Here the euphoric statement in the epilogue of the Civ 4 handbook, that the workers now have an interesting new function with the new tile-improvements, in my eyes fails. To construct these different mills and so on is the new micromanagement in Civ 4 and so I´m normally a fan of a certain kind of micromanagement, I´m not happy with that (may be because I´m not so used to it).
I´m still thinking the best way to deal with workers is to throw them out of the game in the CTP-way.
Oh heck no. I do I think you have more knowledge then most about modding civ4 therefore some might not relate to your ethusiaum over its advantage to civ3
As long as Fireaxis touted n published pros like you keep pumping out the hits Civ4 modding sector should be fine though Note: SOrry I had to correct a few inaccuracies with my original post. Hear is the corrected version in case anyone read it
You ever hear the complaint The AI's in civ3 can be bought up and influenced to go to war with the strongest civs for the price of a bag of beans? I hear Smidlee say this .. alot
I never believed this mybe cuz I played CIv3.5 ala mod alot but check this out.
Spoiler :
Freaking Serbs are a lil powerhouse and in the vacinity of my enemy but won't get their hands dirty without me breaking the bank or giving thousands up in research commitments while they go an military spending spree! . IN the next pic You'll see They want all of my money plus the freshest tech on the market! WHat happened to the bag of beans theory? IM better of doing the diry deeds myslef, atleast my units get the promos
Here they are this time asked to go war against Germany, the number 3 ranked powerhouse
Spoiler :
I started using prt screen every time I found this 'fact' to be untrue Now I have a vault of these AI being crafty and I don't know why or how to explain all these smart diplo calls. Heres a slightly less powerful civ taking slightly less money from me but over 100per turn sure aint the bag of beans I hoping for based on CIv4 complainer's remarks.
Spoiler :
Now remember I have to bribe a coalition to be effective in my goals since mega map means mega sized opponents. Whats this cost me in the end? HOw about THe science race to some fat civ that sits untouched after dominating the other side of the world.
LIKE THIS GUY FOR EXBastard blew me off the continant two turns later when I refused the equalizer tech he demanded for the lead in the space race(SR= first to discover the new world by funding a expadition team in 8 'parts')
Wanna know how he got those lead up techs and could still afford army production that doubles mine and counquerd half the world? He simply called me out early and I had to pay all the civs close to me to stay on side. Otherwise what happens? He sends them after me! Think what trouble that would be! > look for yourself on the world map (my sprawlin empire's HQ is orangy red upper left)OK, Now I got my neighbours going against him bad thing though is they will have to settle some day and guess what? Hes bigger so they pay! MOre cash and techs go his way! SO People who say we are master manipulaters in CIv3, mind telling me How this always comes into play?
IS it cuz of my rep? Well some weaker civs will except my smaller offering even with a rep hit or two. They then take my tech, fight a bit with the allience who I paid steep for, with thier measly help they might take some land for themselves then they pass on that tech to the enemy to stop from gettin clobbered in counter. Nice!NOw my enemy has better techs and cleaned out his outdated units to roll in the power units (means better value maint price) for when I decide to come in!
How munipulative was that for my side?
SOmetimes I notice the civ that can't be bought cheap is needing a resource that my propsed enemy is suppling them. ANyway I can share as many as these as you want to see. If your postin counterclaim make sure to display the level you play on. I play monarch
Bastard blew me off the continant two turns later 
Now please tell me why, after that reply, I would have even the slightest inclination to teach you anything? I learned to mod both Civ3 and Civ4 without your help, I'm sure you're quite capable of the same accomplishment.
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Sorry pal, sad to see an enthusiast go like that. To be honest, I am not quite sure I can share your hopes regarding Civ V modding, as I see 3d graphics beeing even more sophisticated and thus harder to mod there. Recently I stumbeled upon a guide to the Civ IV worldbuilder, link here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132800
The introduction of that guide rather impressed me, just have a look, maybe it'll give you some answers to your frustration. If not, all the best to you also - and see you in another thread.
Less is more
This is an extremely important concept that should be considered first and foremost before embarking on any scenario design. The Less is More concept means that the less scenarios the more fun they will be.
Essentially the concept works on the basis that there are a finite amount of people interested in creating scenarios. These people include designers, modifiers, programmers and artists. If these people are spread over a large number of scenarios then the quality will be less than if they were concentrated on a small number of scenarios.
For example there are 20 people interested in creating scenarios. These people are spread between 20 scenario designs. The quality of these scenarios will be very low, as it is simple human nature that no one person will know how to do everything in a project. However, if the 20 people were spread between only 4 scenario projects that means that 5 people are working on each scenario. The quality of each scenario will be much higher than if they worked independently, or even in smaller groups.
So keep in mind and decide if an existing scenario project would benefit more from your help than if you started a new scenario.
Thank you for your kind words and for assisting our (not too realistic) efforts for doing an upgrade for Civ 3.
Concerning modding teams, I am allowed to be part of a modding team for Civ 3 and I think, I know a lot of the pros and contras of modding teams.
About the sentence "less is more" I can do the following sentence without hurting you, as this isn´t a statement by you, but a propaganda statement from the creators of Civ 4:
For me "less is less"
, even if it concerns big empires or the possibilities of modding. With this methode the creators of Civ 4 have cut out a lot of creativity of thousands of people who have no proper access to improve Civ 4.
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Concerning your words "after that reply", please don´t forget that this reply only used your own terms you have given to posters that tried to compare modding graphics in Civ 4 and Civ 3.
May be, you have not understood my last post. I really want to learn how I can simply transfer these units to Civ 4 (it´s not "anything" I want to learn). I try to get to the same level of understanding the capabilities and limitations with both games before I continue, as you have stated.
Now please help me to reach this level, you are speaking of. How can I simply transfer this unit to Civ 4 ? This is a central point for me, why I don´t move to Civ 4. Or are you not able to do this and this is a limitation of Civ 4 ?
In that case my statement about easy modding of Civ 4 in the way I understand it, would be correct. But be told, in that case I wouldn´t see this as a kind of a triumphe as my core-problem with modding Civ 4 is still not solved.
Thank you for your kind words and for assisting our (not too realistic) efforts for doing an upgrade for Civ 3.
Youre welcome.
For me "less is less"
And for me, more is more. I have to admit, I have never modded any Civ game, but I have spent many years of my life modding other 2d and 3d games. I can only only recommend reading Seven05s post over and over again, because it complies with all my experiences in 3d modding. Its different than 2d modding, but its not more difficult. Maybe you need other tools, maybe you need other techniques, but it also gives you a lot of freedom. With Civ IV Firaxis basically gave us on open source tool box for the creation of a wide range of strategy games. Its a pity some of you out there dont want to see the potential of that package. But thats yours to cope with. I am glad that guys like Rhye (whos obviously appreciated by both camps and whos opinion therefore counts even more) see the potential and are willing to use it. I am sure Ill be enjoying Civ IV long after the release of Civ V which btw. noone of us can tell how it will look like or when it will be released. So comparisons and predictions of how quickly Civ V will outshine its predecessor are a total nonsense and should be banned to the realm of mysticism I hope the guys making those predictions wont be the ones most disappointed by and first to bash Civ V when it finally hits shelves.
And btw. although already announced weeks ago, THIS was my 40th post here.
azzaman333
meh
I'm sure there are many people who want to be able to see how to mod Civ 4, but aren't prepared to have to learn various programming languages to have to do it. Which is the core of the problem. Casual modders can't tweak Civ 4 to their preferences anywhere as easily as Civ 3 can be tweaked.
You only have to learn program languages if you want to mod Civ IV in a way Civ III was never possible to mod anyway. For 3d unit modding you just need a proper 3d editor as you need a graphic programme (basically a bitmap editor) for 2d. And if you want a easy to mod 2d bitmap civ game that is capable to handle 31 nations on huge maps - you still have and always will have Civ III. No one took it from you, no one says you are not allowed to use it anmore. A game I liked much. May it live long and prosper!
But that does not justify all the bashing and resentment and hatred towards Civ IV that's spilled here in ther forums. There ARE people who like and want the new features of Civ IV. People who prefer depth in gameplay over pure size and number of opponents. People who prefer up to date 3d graphics over outdated isometric 2d. People who are willing to learn the programming languages and do great things with Civ IV. To bad, you're not one of them. But I am.
azzaman333
meh
I just want an simple editor for Civ 4 to create maps like I could in the Civ 3. The WorldBuilder doesn't in any way achieve these goals, instead it makes me abuse my computer when I accidentally add a lion to my civ and meet an AI, thus having to start all over again.
Dark Sheer
Deity
Actually the main problem is the lack of an editor like what is in CivIII. While it is not impossible to do modding that doesn't change the core rules without touching the SDK, it is certainly not as easy as in CivIII where everything you need to change are done through the editor.
In Civ4 you actually need to go into the various file and start searching for the particular line that you want to change. Its doable but definitely a pain
The question is why did Firaxis decide to remove the useful tool like the editor. 
I mean they can come out with an editor and still release the SDK, no? Basically the majority of the modders only want to tweak a thing or two and the CivIII editor basically make the individual file involved more or less invisible to them. Now, if only someone would be willing to invest some time in coming up with an editor like CivIII that act as a go between and let you edit the numbers without having to first look for the individual file and then the specific line, that would be a god send.
CyberChrist
You caught my attention
You already got that simple editor - it's called Notepad.
Personally I use UltraEdit for everything though (due to the coloring and sectioning of tags etc.).
EDIT: Doh, I should never post before my first cup of coffee. Missed the maps part of your post - text editor applies for everything else though. For maps you should try the user made Civ4 Save/Scenario/Map Editor.
EDIT2: .. or The MapView Project.
Actually the main problem is the lack of an editor like what is in CivIII.
Now, if only someone would be willing to invest some time in coming up with an editor like CivIII that act as a go between and let you edit the numbers without having to first look for the individual file and then the specific line, that would be a god send.
I fully agree on that one, an easier to use editor is desireable and also an item on my wishlist. But you never know, maybe one of the fans is allready working on something like that. I've seen fan-created editors pop up for lot's of other games that were never intended for any modding at all. But the 'Civ IV is cr*p' attidude some of the posters here are displaying surely wont support or speed up that process. Think about it...
Therein lies the problem.
In Civ II & III you had to create new unit graphics if you wanted a new unit. In Civ IV you don't need to do that, rather than creating an entirely new model with new animations and new textures you simply find one that is close (and there will be one unless you're looking for something really unique) and modify it. For instance, say you want a medieval footman with a specific shield, you can simply change the texture (2D image) of the existing shield in a similar unit such as the spearman. No animation work, no modelling work, just copy and past some files into the appropriate folders, edit a 2D image and add the unit to a couple of XML files. You can get more involved and change attached pieces such as helmets/hats and shields/weapons but that's up to you, and it still doesn't require 3D modelling, just following a well-written tutorial. A good example of this can be seen in the Graphics Modpack forum, there are mods that add entire sets of civilization specific unit appearances created by people that didn't create or animate a single model.
Terrains are even easier. You just need to make sure the tiles have no visible seams in them since they repeat, something I'm sure you also deal with in Civ III. They can also be full color images, no pallets to worry about and the blending is handled with a alpha transparency layer which is easily moved between images. Mountains use a single 2D image for the texture (color and details) and a set of greyscale heightmaps for their physical shape. So, unlike the Civ III tiles, you can change the appearance with a simple recolor in all of 30 seconds or combine the shape of one person's mountains with the textures of another, a feat that is effectively impossible in Civ III. And then you have the forests & jungles, features that you can completely ignore when modifying mountains in Civ IV since those features are idependant of the terrains. This makes it possible for me to take mountains from one mod, recolor them to my liking and then add in the jungles and/or forests from another and be done within a matter of minutes.
And none of this has even touched on the expanded capabilities of Civ IV modding. I've added in completely new terrain types expanding the number of terrains in the game from the base set (grass, plains, desert, tundra & snow) to nearly three times that with climate variations of the grass, plains and desert. Not only is this a visual change but each terrain type can be treated as entirely new terrains with their own yield values, allowable improvements, resources, defensive bonuses, etc... AND it works with random maps, not just pre-made maps for scenarios. I have new units that use completely different rules than the default units and the AI knows how to use them. Granted these are complex changes involving C++ and python code, but the simple fact that they are possible makes them infinitely easier to impliment than they would be in a game that doesn't offer the same support.
PredatorFett
steam user
I'd rather have new unit graphics than modify existing ones, as I'm sure most other people like me would.
Ya like Predaterfett said Some are getting tired of reskins .Somehow I recognize these great works from other previous monthes installments. Like how many Rosevelt's are their now? (althought this months 'General' Rosey looks cool iMO)
About what I blued up, Can you show me some of these examples? I would love to see where civ4 is going with this.
Also, HAve you seen potential for cultural indicaters or geographic representation of resources? . Do you make chinese planations look differant then AMerican farms and so on? Or, THink of the way Thai/ Vietnam irrigate on hills to maximize space. Has that been repreasented with rice farms that refelect thier cultural style compared to say american food grow- op? I would like to see examples please. THanks!
I can't do any of that, I'm a programmer, not an artist. However, Ethnic or civilization improvements are possible, they already exist for cottages/hamlets/towns and no special code changes are needed to put them into effect for the remaining improvements.
I can show you what I did but what is most impressive, to me anyway, isn't the terrain textures themselves, but how it all works and ties together especially the fact that it works with random maps and not just pre-made scenarios. The map script I use generates a heightmap of the world first, applies plate tectonics to that and then generates temperature and rainfall maps based on the final heightmap (This is cephalo's 'perfect world' map script). The result is jungles where jungles should appear based on the landmasses not simply some arbitrary latitude definitions, rain shadows caused by mountain ranges, realistic mountain ranges and island chains rather than purely random features, the list goes on. At any rate, using the temperature, rain and height map to define terrain type the result is a fairly accurate world where resource placement and even civilization placement can be tied to the climate. So you can be specific and, for instance place oil on 'hot' desert terrain but not in temperate or cool desert regions. You can have higher altitude regions with a cooler climate and food resources like corn and rice in areas more appropriate without artificial restrictions. And when it's done you don't have to look at those ugly 'bands' caused by static lattitude based terrain placement. And since I hinted at it before, you can control civ placement by climate as a result, so no more half-naked african civs starting in the middle of the frozen tundra. You can even work out ethnic clusters using resources in addition to the climate, for instance having the Chinese, Khmer, Korean & Japanese civs start on a continent with rice while the native Americans, Aztecs and Mayans start on a continent with corn. And all of this on a random map, yeah I like my random maps since it makes exploration a little more fun when you don't know where everything is going to be.
And let's see, I think I have some screenshots although like I said they won't look to impressive since I'm a programmer.
Here's one:
The minimap shows the general distribution of major terrain features like deserts. In the main view you can see the 'hot' and 'temperate' versions of desert, plains and grassland. The oil is on the 'hot' desert, the elephants are on 'hot' plains, in the lower center there are some horse on temperate plains with temperate grassland nearby and in the upper right portion of the landmass you can see some 'hot' grass. The placement of forests & jungles is also based on rainfall. This screenshot is from an earlier version so the landmasses are a bit off, rivers are all but non-existant and the resource placement is cranked up pretty high for testing. But, you can see the climate based terrains.
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Seven05, thank you very much for your short tutorial about Civ 4 graphics.
Your post is on my list with important informations about Civ (containing all kind of games of the Civ series). I think this post (and your next post with closer details about terrain) are interesting for a lot of other people too, that are posting or lurking in this thread. The possibilities about terrain you are describing are impressive.
On the other side, if I understand your post well, you also see no way of doing easy modding with Civ 4 in the way I did describe it, what is a pitty.
I guess 'easy' is too subjective. Not being an artist I found Civ III impossible for me to edit with regards to graphics. In Civ 4 however I've been able to customize units and terrain with relative ease, which is I guess saying I was able to do it at all
