Civ 4, a failure made successful by money and absence of community

[neriana]

Governor called, village idiot is missing.

You watch too much TV.

Even without the bugs the game isn't worth 9/10, maybe a strong 8 but never a 9. If it was the first Civ, I could understand, but the way the game is made, it is a better game than the predecessor, but frankly there is nothing to be excited about this new game.

For YOU. That is your opinion, it is not a fact. If there's nothing to be excited about, then you're lucky -- you don't have to care much about bugs if you don't really want to play it.

For me? Best civ yet. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I'm not going to start accusing you of having some weird agenda because of your opinion, so please don't accuse those of us who love the game of being Firaxis lapdogs just because of our opinions.

No software is going to work on every computer configuration. It just isn't in the sphere of practical politics. If you insist that every game work as soon as you put it in the drive, I really suggest sticking to consoles. Of course, considering that consoles are getting more complex all the time, I'm not sure you'll be totally safe there either.

 

[oldStatesman]

If everyone did this...well...wouldn't it just cause the companies to go under before being able to make any fixes to their games?

Maybe, but why should we continue to throw good money after bad? Why reinforce bad behaviour?

Companies that continually release shoddy products and don't provide appropriate levels of support, including prompt acknowledgement to comsumer issues and timely patches usually aren't around long anyway, and don't deserve to be. I'd rather have a patchless game (or application) once in a while if it would cause the industry as a whole to tighten up.

My biggest beef in this case is not so much Firaxis (pre-takeover) but T2. They did not provide any support for days on end...and even now their communications with the consumers as a whole is below standard. To their credit, they are allowing Firaxis to work on a timely patch, (yes, a month is not bad at all)...the most frustrating thing was they made no official announcements, even a general one that they at least heard us, until this week, and left us dangling, seemingly without a net.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If everyone did this...well...wouldn't it just cause the companies to go under before being able to make any fixes to their games?

or perhaps they would wait to release the game until they had patches ready. or perhaps label the inital release a 'paid beta test' (which they really need to do, because its only with massive numbers of players that they can see what all the technical issues are. Perhaps release that unfinished game 5-10$ cheaper and then raise the price once the patches are out.

Because basically a game on first release is like an experimental drug, it hasn't been tried in large # yet so we don't know about the problems it may have.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

no problems, according to some guys here I should go to the first mechanic and pay money to have my car fixed.

You shouldn't have to pay, and that's what patches are about. The car company makes cars, some of them don't work in certain environments (too cold, too humid, etc.) They agree they will modify your car FOR FREE to take care of the problems once they figure out how (now some problems may never get fixed, but that's not because they want more money, but because they can't fix the problem...at least not with their current budget)

 

[Frewfrux]

or perhaps they would wait to release the game until they had patches ready. or perhaps label the inital release a 'paid beta test' (which they really need to do, because its only with massive numbers of players that they can see what all the technical issues are. Perhaps release that unfinished game 5-10$ cheaper and then raise the price once the patches are out.

Because basically a game on first release is like an experimental drug, it hasn't been tried in large # yet so we don't know about the problems it may have.

Wow, I think that's the best idea I've heard in a long time!

 

[oldStatesman]

So, WarX, the drivers for your card are bad and you are blaming Firaxis for this? You should be screaming at your video card manufacturer for providing drivers that don't work.

Aw come on guy, you are a better man than that reply shows...that is a disingenuous strawman argument...I expect more from you.

He stated he rolled his drivers back to an older version...he may have been using the newest version which the T2 supprt site recommends. (I have a Radeon 9550, and Soren himself said in many posts early on to use the 5.10version drivers, however for a lot of us that fix doesn't work, but for a lot it does. Some have found that the 4.10 release does help out ... but I don't want to go back because the 5.10 drivers work optimally for several of my other apps (except Civ4) and I don't want to mess them up. So I'll wait for the patch that fixs civ 4. Cards makers will also probably have updated drivers that help eventualy with Civ4 specific issues, but I don't expect that until after Firaxis has released a patch or two...the card makers usually wait until at least one patch is out before they attempt to optimixe their drivers for a specific issue that affects one product only. They don't want to optimize for the original code, since the patch will invariably make changes.

 

[Bhruic]

Like the OP said, 5 years ago a game with bug would be shot down by game critics, now they are buying their way into critics.

Where can I get a pair of those rose coloured glasses?

I can remember games 10 years back that had bugs at least as bad as the ones in Civ IV. And there wasn't a huge public outcry, nor were they panned by the critics. They got great reviews. Of course, they also got patches, which brought them up to the point where they were truly great games (although many of them still had lingering minor bugs).

Heck, if you go back farther into the DOS days, you can find even better examples.

Despite selective memory to the contrary, this is not a new issue.

Bh

 

[King Flevance]

LOL. This thread is still going.

I have an idea. Who cares what the standard was 5 years ago.....Lets make a new one!! And make it goooooood.

 

[denyd]

I can't believe I just wasted 5 minutes of my life on this thread. There wasn't a single post that I can find that will contribute to making things better.

This entire thread reminds be of my childhood days of watching professional wrestling.

So I'll just post this and unsubscribe to it as fast as possible and move on to more postive and a less confrontational thread.

 

[Malecite]

For those of you who feel obligated to cast stones at those who have every right to voice a complaint, I say your all a bunch of arrogant hypocrites.

When I was still researching this game, thats right "researching", games are to expensive these days to just go out and buy without properly looking into them, I came across a rather interesting title. It read...

ATI USERS CANT PLAY CIV 4

Now being an ATI user I was instantly alarmed and intrigued by this rather blatant and lucid claim. So after reading about the horrible bug that didn't just make the game run poorly, it made it unplayable, I opted to download civ 4 and test it out. After seeing my cracked copy worked fine, I went and bought the game.

Unethical or just smart?

I dont really care which, the result was that I got what I payed for, a working copy of the Civ 4 software. Now this could have gone entirely differently...

I could have gone out and bought the game the second it was available, LIKE MANY PEOPLE DID. Im a huge civilization fan and I was tempted to do just that. Now if I had proceeded along with that course of action and my copy didn't work it would have put me in the position of an alarmingly large population of users. Not only would I have been disapointed I would have been VERY ANGRY at what I would have, and do, consider a betrayl of firaxis to the fans.

Why do I consider it a betrayl?

Because at this point its been what more than a month since the game came out? And still there has been NO official effective response from firaxis to fix what I dont just consider a problem but a fraud. Your selling a product that once oppened CANNOT be conveniently exchanged or returned to local retailers. Essentially firaxis has done what EA does regularly to its fans, and as a result has been demonized by the computer world. I hate EA plain and simple, why you ask? EA is a money grubbing evil corporation that releases games on time rather than when the game is finished. They have extremely low respect for their employees (See recent new coverage on their facilities) and an even lowerer respect for their fan base. If you want an example, just look at how the recent 1.03 patch of BF2 made my CD key invalid and I can no longer play the game despite every fix released by the company and modders. So far Firaxis has demonstrated that they are in fact a top notch devloping company, but this latest release of Civ4 has put them on Par with EA in terms of poor response time and customer satisfaction.

When you see posts like this, they are very simply products of frustration. Try and imagine what it would have been like the day you bought the game to have it fail instead of function. Your at the mercy of a company that already has your money, essentially you can do nothing about it and in your mind youve just blown 60 dollars on buggy software that doesn't work! It makes no sense to try and insense these people into further anger or chastizing them for complaining when they have EVERY right to do so.

A little empathy goes a long way people. As far as im concerned CIV 4 is a huge let down if you compare it to previous versions.

Im just happy my copy works, not everyone can say the same.

 

[warpus]

MaleciteYour selling a product that once oppened CANNOT be conveniently exchanged or returned to local retailers

i don't think you can blame the game publishers for this. blame the retaliers that sell the games - they are making these rules.

i bought a dvd from futureshop and wished to return or exchange it for another movie. went back to futureshop the next day and they told me that this wasn't possible since i could have made a copy of the movie, and this is illegal.

imagine my outrage! they *assumed* that i'm a pirate and that i made an illegal copy of the movie, even though they did not have any proof. you don't accuse your customer of something like this and expect him to return!! what kind of a way is that to treat a customer?

i have never bought a dvd from futureshop again and have significantly reduced my shopping there, as a result. in fact, i don't buy many dvds and/or games from anywhere anymore... except games for my gamecube - those can be exchanged. the no-return rules are ******** - they are simply driving more people to piracy, not the other way around.

 

[jajohns8]

I think this game is great, yet it does have problems. Could the developers and publishers have been a little more forthcoming with information? I think so. Does that make this game a failure? Come on. Seriously. That's rediculous. I would say it would be more of a MISTAKE than a FAILURE for the developer or the publisher to think that they can just cruise along and not put information out concerning fixes or patches. The communication flow from said entities has been abysmally slow. Its a great game, but I do get annoyed at the CTD problem.
I would have more confidence if the developer and the publisher recognized and responded to customer complaints quicker. I actually know a little about CRM (Customer Relationship Management) from my work....Let me tell ya, you can leave your customer base unhappy, these days, for just so long, until they leave you.....I think that in the gaming industry, very few people involved would even know what CRM is. You can sell ONE title with a famous game developer's name on it, but if you screwed the customer that time....will they come back for the next one?

In short, I like the game. I 'll love it after the patch. I hate the communication flow from the developers and publishers of the game.

 

[warpstorm]

Because at this point its been what more than a month since the game came out? And still there has been NO official effective response from firaxis

Sure they did, they said the patch is in final QA at Take2.

 

[Frewfrux]

Not only would I have been disapointed I would have been VERY ANGRY at what I would have, and do, consider a betrayl of firaxis to the fans.

I thought it was T2 who decided to release the game pre-maturely?

And still there has been NO official effective response from firaxis to fix what I dont just consider a problem but a fraud.

Yes there has. Read the many other posts on this site with regards to the upcoming patch.

 

[Crosby 87]

You know what the funniest part is? I'd bet money that everyone of those who vehemently defend this - pile of whatever coded together by some third rate programmers no one else would hire- have the same exact crashing and assorted playability issues but they will never admit it. Plus they have all day to tinker with their boxes until they get this thing in some sort of working state. Unfortunately most of us with a life, girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, and real jobs do not have the luxury of tinkering with our boxes all day and night until we hit jackpot. Not to mention that people like me who work with computers all day do not have the slightest desire to go home and start all over again because some greedy corportation decided they needed to ship the game on time in whatever state of coding it was.
Oh well, we're the outcasts I guess LOL

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming, and language. --Padma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Frewfrux]

You know what the funniest part is? I'd bet money that everyone of those who vehemently defend this - pile of whatever coded together by some third rate programmers no one else would hire- have the same exact crashing and assorted playability issues but they will never admit it. Plus they have all day to tinker with their boxes until they get this thing in some sort of working state. Unfortunately most of us with a life, girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, and real jobs do not have the luxury of tinkering with our boxes all day and night until we hit jackpot. Not to mention that people like me who work with computers all day do not have the slightest desire to go home and start all over again because some greedy corportation decided they needed to ship the game on time in whatever state of coding it was.
Oh well, we're the outcasts I guess LOL

wow. calling everyone names will probably solve the problem. oh, and insinuating that everyone but you is a lier will definately make yourself look smart.

 

[King Flevance]

Actually, the no return policy was made due to the amount of software coming out that was bug infested and/or had no tech support. Piracy isnt the real reason for this.
I will agree that store that refused to take the movie back has insane practices IMO. As far as computer games go, I remember when you could rent them. Then CD/DVD writers came out and that stopped immediately.

As far as the return policy goes, I tried to take some games to alot of different retailers. (Video game specialist retailers WITH used computer games.) I had manuals, most had original boxes, and no scratches on my CDs. I HATE scratches even a nicked teeny tiny itsy bitsy one bugs me... its my pet peeve. My CDs are flawless mirrors.
Anyways, perfectly great condition games. Then I find out this was about the time this whole used computer game era was ending. There were still used ones for sale in most of these stores. Not just like 3 but more like 500. Tons. I asked what I could get for them and they all said 'nothing' they are cancelling the program or whatever. Here is the good part, I offered to GIVE them to them. (I don't like the idea of throwing computer games away. I don't know why) But I said they can have em. Resale them, make some money, gimme nothing. Nope. Perfect condition!! WTH? I thought.
I did talk to them as this astounded me as to why they wouldn't take them for FREE. The average response I got was,

"when people buy games nowdays, and it doesn't work and there is no tech support provided they want their money back. With all the companies doing this as often as it is, they were losing money by doing this as the stores get no credit as they have already purchased the game and there is also no where they can turn to for a refund."

I still have alot of old games I never play in an old file cabinet in the basement. Manuals and all. I go dig them out for nestalgic (sp?) reasons from time to time. That is where Civ 1 & 2 both are along with CTP and ToT And FW. Oregon Trail 1 & 2, Cultures 1, Dark Earth, Sim Earth, lol I actually like the drawer but I actually never play them anymore. (I wasnt selling some of them, but instead some were joined in to fill one drawer and start into the 2nd. Not to mention clean out my 'game shelf' up here.)

Anyways, it basically both of their faults I guess. The computer companies for not supporting their games for so long or its retailers. As well as the retailers that have no reason to change policy now days in case tech support ever goes back to the way it was. It would just be easier if the companies didn't hide behind this wall between us consumers and them.

 

[Malecite]

If you want to get into specifics, then yes I do believe it was TK2 who released the game early, Im not exactly sure how the whole publisher/developer relationship works but In my mind its not entirely relevant.

You have a game that was released chop full of bugs, not the sort that affect gameplay, but the type that make gameplay impossible. IMO, that kind of thing is more or less inexcusable yet companies, again Ill use EA, do it all the time. I just hate to see a production team with a stellar rep like firaxis have it tarnished by slip shod production/release dates.

I really do enjoy this game, some aspects are very frustrating and others plain need revamping, but on the whole its a solid sequal to Civ 3. The thing that gets me is the people who paid for the game and have had to wait this long for a patch, that im not entirely sure has been promised to fix said errors.

But if you think that its such an outrageous concept to release a bug free game, just look at the shinning example.

Blizzard

I dont need to explain this to most people, all of their games are tested within an inch of their lives and patches are released days after bugs are found not months. So please dont lecture everyone on how its so very difficult to locate and resolve issues with compatibility, other companies deal with it, so why not Firaxis/TK2? You would think it would be in their best interests to deal with these glaring problems quickly so as to reduce the amount of flak they get. But apparently the problems are to complicated or the will to fix them in a timely fashion just isn't there. At any rate I can easily understand the frustrations expressed by those people who are having huge problems playing this game.

 

[Crosby 87]

wow. calling everyone names will probably solve the problem. oh, and insinuating that everyone but you is a lier will definately make yourself look smart.

I'm sorry if you have problems understanding english. I didn't call anyone names and I didn't call anyone a liar. So don't try to input hidden meanings into my opinion.
If we'd do a poll about how many people here was able to install the game and run it to its FULL potential without doing ANYTHING special to their system or buying any components, the number of replies would be less than 10.

 

[King Flevance]

Blizzard

'nuf said.

I wonder how long it will take someone to use WoW (an online game not the same way Civ is) to act like Blizzard cant handle good bug free games.

For the record, Take 2 is to blame. I personally believe the fast release was due to the recent spending of 20 million dollars on purchasing the Civ series. And they couldnt wait to get their money back over the purchase so they hurry release and bam! they made their money, who cares about tech support? Sad day for Civ fans that get screwed by this.

EDIT: I know you dont care who did it, the point is the game release stunk. Just letting you know because I too didn't care at first, but its good to know for future posts as this wont be addressed at you and your arguement be missed.

Also the game came out 3 weeks and 1 day ago here. patch news wasn't released, or anything for that matter until 2 weeks and 5-6 days. Almost 3 weeks. The whole time the people posting complaints get called morons for not knowing little tricks to get their 'sh*tboxes' to work. I tried them all and then some extras and still havent got it working. I have other things I have to commit my time to besides this, and to top it off I dont know much about video settings.