Civ 4, a failure made successful by money and absence of community

[warpus]

I'm sorry if you have problems understanding english. I didn't call anyone names and I didn't call anyone a liar. So don't try to input hidden meanings into my opinion.
If we'd do a poll about how many people here was able to install the game and run it to its FULL potential without doing ANYTHING special to their system or buying any components, the number of replies would be less than 10.

i seriously doubt that. civ4 runs perfectly fine for me, and i haven't even had a fresh install of windows in a year and a half.. it's slowly dying.. yet civ4 works perfectly. my friend mike, who i play against, has had no problems either.

 

[Frewfrux]

I'm sorry if you have problems understanding english. I didn't call anyone names...

hmmm...let's see...

coded together by some third rate programmers

So...the coders at Fraxis are what?

Unfortunately most of us with a life...

so you're saying the rest of us don't have a life?

...because some greedy corportation decided they needed to ship the game...

you're calling Fraxis/T2 a what?

I'd bet money that everyone of those who vehemently defend this - pile of whatever coded together by some third rate programmers no one else would hire- have the same exact crashing and assorted playability issues but they will never admit it.

now...how is this *not* calling anyone a lier?!?

So don't try to input hidden meanings into my opinion.

It's not all that hidden.

 

[Sorceresss]

Unfortunately most of us with a life, girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, and real jobs do not have the luxury of tinkering with our boxes all day and night until we hit jackpot. Not to mention that people like me who work with computers all day do not have the slightest desire to go home and start all over again because some greedy corportation decided they needed to ship the game on time in whatever state of coding it was.

Fair enough : I agree with every word I have quoted.

I have experienced NO problems whatsoever running CIV IV at a maximum level of visual quality & performance (except for the resolution)...but my pure luck does not inspire me to be unsympathetic to Crosby's point of view, which represents the problematic experience of "many" gamers (on this Forum).

"Many" = a value derived from feminine intuition, based on no pseudo-scientific polls & statistics.

 

[Frewfrux]

If we'd do a poll about how many people here was able to install the game and run it to its FULL potential without doing ANYTHING special to their system or buying any components, the number of replies would be less than 10.

I did a poll something along these lines.

52% play with no problem
32% play with minor bugs
12% won't play due to major bugs
4% can't play at all

over 100 voters.

 

[DamRho]

Well, I don't exactly agree with you although I'm forced to say that you have a point on some level.

I tried the game yesterday (actually it was today at 2AM as any good civ-fanatic would do to stay awake all night long) and was a little disappointed at the black-terrain thing that happens on my laptop (with my desktop there's no point in even trying since it's a 1996 Pentium II). I was very angry, obviously, and was actually thinking the way you are but as a software programmer I have to agree that it's not easy to make something the level of complexity of Civ4 and expect it to work everywhere with the same level of accuracy; OK, I don't work for a multi-million dollar company like Firaxis or Microsoft, but they face the same problems we face on the bottom of the food chain as well. I don't see it as being deliberate from Firaxis since the game was actually released earlier than predicted, it's just the way it is. It would be terribly bad if they didn't care to fix these things and wouldn't even release any patches or totally ignore tech support but they're not doing that. Just give them a break, they work hard to put this thing in our hands as well.

 

[JBConquests]

I have to agree with DamRho. I am a lead software developer for a very large software company. Trying to develop software that runs perfectly on every computer is an impossible job. Blame the crashing problems on hundreds of different video card types, motherboards, sound cards, etc... Trying to test every possible combination of these would require Firaxis to literally build thousands of computers just to make sure it is perfect. If you expect them to do that then your game is going to cost hundreds of $. The problem originates at the hardware and driver layers. So, lets put blame where it is due.

Malecite said below:

Blizzard

I dont need to explain this to most people, all of their games are tested within an inch of their lives and patches are released days after bugs are found not months. So please dont lecture everyone on how its so very difficult to locate and resolve issues with compatibility, other companies deal with it, so why not Firaxis/TK2?

Quit making up facts. Check your facts. Blizzard for the original warcraft 3 released 10 patches. 10. They DID NOT test it within an inch of there lives. If they had, they wouldn't have released 10 patches. In Fact, they hardly tested at all. 10 patches is pathetic. Also, the time between these patches is 2 months to 5 months.

You DO NOT want any company to release a patch after only a few days. You know what is going to happen if they do? They may fix your scenario, but they will likely break 10 others. Patches require lots of testing to make sure they are solid and to ensure the quality of the overall game is improved by the patch. This takes time.

In the end, I wish we could release a perfect software program on day one, but I don't see how it can be done without costing you, the buyer, quite a bit more money.

My advice is that if you aren't willing to risk buying a buggy game then wait a while before buying.

 

[Tarkhan]

Massively Online game developers are NOTORIOUS for inadequate patch-testing. Their fans get so angry if they "God Forbid" miss a monthly patch, that they don't even bother fixing a lot of stuff, and often don't test it enough.

Because they constantly need to patch their own patches, or things that older patches break, you get eight hours of downloading before you can even log in to most MMO's.

 

[Crosby 87]

I did a poll something along these lines.

52% play with no problem
32% play with minor bugs
12% won't play due to major bugs
4% can't play at all

over 100 voters.

Yes, but what percentage of those 52 with "no problem" were lucky enough to load and play without doing as little or mundane task as adjusting their swap file size?
That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Frewfrux]

Yes, but what percentage of those 52 with "no problem" were lucky enough to load and play without doing as little or mundane task as adjusting their swap file size?
That is the point I was trying to make.

That's why I said "something along these lines". The poll is not specifically what you were looking for...but it was pretty close.

 

[King Flevance]

Just real quick from a neutral standpoint.

A) 52/48 isnt much different than 50/50 so about half the people that have it had to tweak to play. And arent getting full gaming potential for a product they payed full price for.
B)This is based off of not only just the people that come here, but also just the people that replied/seen the thread

 

[Crosby 87]

hmmm...let's see...



So...the coders at Fraxis are what?

third rate programmers

so you're saying the rest of us don't have a life?

No, I'm not saying that, some of you just have more time to tinker with your pc's

you're calling Fraxis/T2 a what?

a greedy corporation

now...how is this *not* calling anyone a lier?!?

I called them liars, not liers

It's not all that hidden.

I guess not

Moderator Action: One warning has already been handed to you in this thread. This is the second. I don't want to see a third such post.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Frewfrux]

thank you.

 

[Sorceresss]

I am a lead software developer for a very large software company. [...] You DO NOT want any company to release a patch after only a few days. You know what is going to happen if they do? They may fix your scenario, but they will likely break 10 others. Patches require lots of testing to make sure they are solid and to ensure the quality of the overall game is improved by the patch. This takes time.

1. Those of us, the very lucky ones, who have experienced no problem running CIV IV since its release would perhaps be wise, then, to not install the first patch right away... not before having read reports, by forum posters, on the patch's positive & negative effects.

2. I am wary of Take 2's Q.A. department : will it take the time & care to extensively test the patch?

 

[JBConquests]

Posted by Sorceresss

2. I am wary of Take 2's Q.A. department : will it take the time & care to extensively test the patch?

Good Question. Every software development department follows different processes and I'm not familiar with their process. Myself, I will install the patch right away, if they break something major I will uninstall and reinstall without the patch. (I like living on the bleeding edge... )

BTW, didn't one of the patches in Civ 3 Conquests break corruption in a major way? I know it was fixed in the final patch.

 

[Crosby 87]

My apologies to Frewfrux and I'll play nice from now on.

 

[Bhruic]

There's a nice post over on the Serious Sam 2 forum by the 2k Project Marketing Manager that seems to relate. The full post is at:

http://forums.seriouszone.com/showthread.php?t=45820

But the relevant point is:

Regarding things that were cut from the game. This is a tricky one and touches on the "why was this game rushed to release" and "why not release it 'when it's done'". It's also a bigger issue with the industry with relation to the publisher/developer relationship. I'm not going to go into the details of the T2/Croteam relationship because 1) I dont know them 2) it's not my place to divulge them. In general terms, typically, developers who want to make a game shop their concept around and publishers pay them to finish the game by a certain time. Developers, especially smaller ones, usually have a very early demo to show off of the game and it's features. Larger, more well known developers who have a track record of successful hits can usually pitch their concepts without showing anything but a concept document.

So agreements are made that a game will be done by a certain time. The publisher plans their finances around that date forecasting a certain number of sales and revenue. To keep things on track publishers hire producers to work with the developer and manage the development process as well as give gameplay feedback, etc. The publisher pays the developer based on milestones where the developer is contractually obligated to have certain things in the game working. Now, we all know that things dont always work out as planned. It's happened with A LOT of games. Features get cut, release dates slip and bugs get left in. It comes down to economics - at what point can the publisher no longer push a game back and have to release it in order to make money or, at the very least, break even? It's different for every game and it's not always fair, but it is what it is. Also, with PC titles this is even more lax because you can always patch it later. Now, this isn't to say that publishers dont want to put out quality product. Of course we do! But, if there arent deadlines then some developers will just keep on going. There are so many factors involved with this that I cannot even begin to breech - terms of payment and the contract, forecasts, state of the game, etc. Not the answer y'all want to hear I'm sure, but that's the answer, or at least, the reason why features get cut.

Bh

 

[JBConquests]

Good points Bhruic. The software I develop is not games (I wish it was games... ) Development in the game industry is obviously quite a bit different than programming and selling other software applications.

 

[Sorceresss]

I feel no sympathy for Take 2, as I felt no sympathy for Atari's treatment of MOO III...but I must recognize that the previous (Bhruic) quote (of a Take 2 suit) is good, MBA-level realism.

Considering that President Bush got a M.B.A. from Harvard Business School, there must be some validity in that kind of good logic.

 

[bobalot]

Quit making up facts. Check your facts. Blizzard for the original warcraft 3 released 10 patches. 10. They DID NOT test it within an inch of there lives. If they had, they wouldn't have released 10 patches. In Fact, they hardly tested at all. 10 patches is pathetic. Also, the time between these patches is 2 months to 5 months.

You DO NOT want any company to release a patch after only a few days. You know what is going to happen if they do? They may fix your scenario, but they will likely break 10 others. Patches require lots of testing to make sure they are solid and to ensure the quality of the overall game is improved by the patch. This takes time.

In the end, I wish we could release a perfect software program on day one, but I don't see how it can be done without costing you, the buyer, quite a bit more money.

My advice is that if you aren't willing to risk buying a buggy game then wait a while before buying.

What the hell are you talking about? Many of those 10 updates they had balanced out units and races within the game, just like the original starcraft(which I think is a better game). In fact for Starcraft, it took a while to finely balance out all the races. All because it has 10 patches it doesn't mean it's release was as botched as Civ 4. You prattle on about it being pathetic even though it means absolutely nothing in relation to Civ 4's problem.

When Warcraft 3 came out, it wasn't a rushed release and it didn't have significant problems for many users(according to Frewfrux's poll, its about 15%, which is fairly significant). You can basically install warcraft 3 or starcraft and not update it and it will play fine. The races may not be finely balanced out, but on the technical side just about everybody can actually play the game, which is what alot of people here are annoyed about.

Congratulations on missing the entire point.

 

[Mujadaddy]

Oh look - no real rebuttals from fan-whores - what a surprise!

Totally agree with you Xguild. All it takes is a few minutes for these guys to tell us what is happening. These fan whores are that gullible and under the thumb that they will simply let themselves be totally walked over for the sake of loyalty. But loyalty to what? It can't be due to your personal relationships on the forum with the Firaxis guys because - guess what - they don't speak to us! So basically you fan whores defend Big Business for nothing!

The game works for me. And my friend who bought it.

I have a weak PC; his is a good one.

I *did* like how your post, the second post in the thread, said that there were no rebuttals Until I walked into this thread just now I was not at all concerned with your delusional premise.