Civ 6 Deity Tier List –– discussing DLC civs now, R&F civs starting 2/19

[civtrader6]

If I play Harald on continents its not hard to get your first few cities on the coast and a +150% chop early is very strong. At 6 civics a tree chop will give over 100 production. If I place a district at the same time as chopping it, it will produce 83% of the district.

Yup there's the chop. Also on a right map Haralds ability to pillage & steal units with longboats is just incredible.

 

[Arent11]

If I play Harald on continents its not hard to get your first few cities on the coast and a +150% chop early is very strong. At 6 civics a tree chop will give over 100 production. If I place a district at the same time as chopping it, it will produce 83% of the district.

But overflow is basically a cheat/oversight of the designers & I would really hope that they are fixing it.

 

[Victoria]

But overflow is basically a cheat/oversight of the designers & I would really hope that they are fixing it.

...yes it's likely an oversight although to be fair chopping has always been there and the lead Dev is not a noob.
Regardless, it's there and abused. I do not always abuse it.

 

[Ornen]

An update to the thread will be coming shortly. As Rise & Fall drops tonight, I'll see if there's anyway form e to change the thread title, as I'd rather continue discussion in this thread than start a new one –– I'm prepared to open a new one if necessary, though.

For now, I'd like to keep the discussion focused on recent DLC civs for the next couple weeks, as I'd rather adjust to the new mechanics before we place the new civs that are dependent on them. In late February, we'll begin talking about the R&F civs, and I expect to have a tentative list including the new civs around that time.

 

[Ornen]

A Tier: Significantly stronger than most of the other civs.
Rome
Sumeria
Aztec
Scythia
Persia
Nubia
Macedon

B Tier: Great. Strong bonuses make this a powerful set of civs.
Germany
Greece (Gorgo)
Russia
Arabia
China
Australia

C Tier: Solid. Good civs that can be great in the right circumstances.
Poland
Kongo
Brazil
USA
France
England
Indonesia

D Tier: Subpar. Situational bonuses that aren’t always helpful.
Japan
Spain
Egypt
Norway
India
Khmer

My thoughts on the new civs since the last time I discussed DLC civs:

Indonesia - C: I really like their bonuses, and I think they could be a B. But I've found the game is still balanced heavily in favor of land civs, and sea resources (which Indonesia's UI requires) have gotten scarcer in recent maps. If they resolve that issue with R&F, Indonesia could move up. I love buying boats with faith –– unlike so many other faith civs, Indonesia gets something they can actually use their faith for.

Khmer – D: Maybe I'm wrong on this one. I'm not wild about the bonuses to aqueducts and holy sites. It's hard to establish religion on deity, and harder still to establish a good one. And aqueducts are one of the more situational districts in the game, making the UA something you'll get some use out of, but not a lot of. The relic bonus is nice, but I don't think they measure up culturally to civs like Russia or Kongo.

Thoughts on the current list? Beyond the two new civs, I'm starting to feel the A level is pretty crowded. They released a pretty powerful set of DLC civs, but at some point it's worth talking about who really is the best early game conqueror, and who's not as good as the others. Right now, Aztec and Rome are the ones I'm thinking about dropping...

 

[stinkubus]

The Aztec have posted the fastest science victory that I'm aware of. They belong in the A tier. Getting a district for the cost of a builder, which you won't even have to pay for ~half the time, is the best bonus in the game, hands down.

 

[Ornen]

The Aztec have posted the fastest science victory that I'm aware of. They belong in the A tier. Getting a district for the cost of a builder, which you won't even have to pay for ~half the time, is the best bonus in the game, hands down.

So is there anyone on the A tier you think deserves to be lower? How about Rome? Sumeria? I'm not quite bullish on them either, I think they've gotten a little overhyped here. Still strong, but I'm not as sure about them as I used to be.

 

[Esperr]

I think Rome for sure can get knocked down to B. Sumeria is a lot harder though. They kind of suck in MP, but in SP just because of carts and zigs they can get ahead pretty fast. Carts into knights is brutal, as it frees up a lot of production in the early game that isn't getting spent on chariots if that makes sense. Zigs really help on Deity to catch up. The barb ability is hit or miss, and he basically doesn't have a leader ability so its tough.

edit:I do think carts are good, but way overated. If they didn't upgrade to knights I don't even really think I would consider them one of the better UU's.

 

[stinkubus]

Of all your A tier civs Rome would probably be my first choice for demotion. They have a "jack of all trades, master of none," quality to them. You can have a solid game on any map, regardless of the VC you pick, but they won't be in the conversation when it comes to fastest win times because none of their bonuses are OP.

Scythia would be my second choice. Light cav have lost a lot of their shine as players have honed better strategies. Sure, they are good at conquest, but so is everyone else in the A tier, so strength of the other bonuses (offering an opportunity to do something other than pedal to the metal conquest) are the difference maker, imo.

 

[Esperr]

So is there anyone on the A tier you think deserves to be lower? How about Rome? Sumeria? I'm not quite bullish on them either, I think they've gotten a little overhyped here. Still strong, but I'm not as sure about them as I used to be.

Of all your A tier civs Rome would probably be my first choice for demotion. They have a "jack of all trades, master of none," quality to them. You can have a solid game on any map, regardless of the VC you pick, but they won't be in the conversation when it comes to fastest win times because none of their bonuses are OP.

Scythia would be my second choice. Light cav have lost a lot of their shine as players have honed better strategies. Sure, they are good at conquest, but so is everyone else in the A tier, so strength of the other bonuses (offering an opportunity to do something other than pedal to the metal conquest) are the difference maker, imo.

oh jeez I just realized Scythia was still even in there. They can definitely go, I would demote them before Rome.

 

[Ornen]

Yeah, I think Scythia is less impressive A.) than they seemed at first, and B.) now that we have added powerful conqueror civs like Persia, Macedon, Nubia, and soon Zulu.

My thoughts on the game's combat have also changed quite a bit since the game came out. We came to the game with the Civ 5 mindset of archer rushes, but this game isn't balanced so that 'mass ranged units' is still the most effective strategy for the entire first half of the game. Walls go up really early in my experience, at which point melee/cavalry units become arguably more important. Not that ranged units become irrelevant, but they're not great for taking cities, at least on their own.

By that metric, you could make a case against Nubia as well –– she felt very strong when I played her, though.

The change also makes melee/cavalry UUs more effective than they seemed at first. I'm a big fan of the mamluk, for instance, and Arabia in general.

I forgot to ask, what would our A tier look like then? Something like this?

Sumeria
Aztec
Persia
Nubia
Macedon

That moves down Rome and Scythia. Of the remaining civs, I'm most comfortable with Macedon and Persia where they are. I've always been a fan of Aztecs (district production + amenities is big), but others have tried to argue against them a few times. I don't think they're as adept a conqueror as the other civs at this level, but I do love their bonuses.

 

[stinkubus]

The extra combat strength for each unique lux can really start to add up. Eagle Warriors, with archer support, can stay viable for a long, long time.

 

[Ziel]

Maybe we should wait a bit, the new patch alone brings a lot of things.

Yestersay, i played with montezuma on pangea and the nearest civ was more than 20 tiles away. Using eagle warriors in these conditions is still possible but ask for a quick GG. And building some encampement delay quick SV.

Meanwhile Rome and Sumer still have an advantage in early culture which is key.

 

[Vahnstad]

First of all, how would you tier the xp civs?

 

[Ornen]

First of all, how would you tier the xp civs?

Not being discussed for two more weeks.

 

[MIS]

Not being discussed for two more weeks.

For my edification, are we discussing how the old/ DLC civs are affected by the new mechanics. E.g. Alex's bonus is less valuable now Eureka's are 40%; but I'd rather have my UUs in the Classical Era rather than Ancient so I can get a heroic age, etc.

 

[Ornen]

For my edification, are we discussing how the old/ DLC civs are affected by the new mechanics. E.g. Alex's bonus is less valuable now Eureka's are 40%; but I'd rather have my UUs in the Classical Era rather than Ancient so I can get a heroic age, etc.

Fine with that

Talking about new civs isn't strictly disallowed either, I'm just not about to cast a strong judgment on them when I still haven't played a full game of R&F yet -- and I'd say the same is true for all of us.

 

[Chibisuke]

I've been saying for a while, archer rush has been severely nerfed by all the updates that have occurred since launch. On deity, AI walls go up super quick now (and they build their own archers very quickly for defense as well). I've even wondered if the AI somehow has a way of purchasing walls, since I have seen them capture a city states and have walls up within 4 or 5 turns, though this may simply be due to their huge production bonuses. Although archers can still be useful, swordsmen/knights + battering rams becomes absolutely necessary fairly early if you intend to dominate your neighbors. Also, AI gets knights ridiculously early in many games, and if you don't have similar units to boost your city defenses, you will be getting attacked by the nearest neighbor.

That being said, Nubia is still pretty OP just because her archers are so dam strong. Their added power + movement speed make them still able to effectively rush, even when walls start to go up (and they also are kind of like scouts which is an added bonus, and can easily clear out barb threats). So yea, Nubia I think is still a clear top tier. I agree that Scythia and Rome have gone down relative to the new civs, so bumping them down makes sense. Aztec is strong though I am not certain I would put them at top tier. Sure, once you get a bunch of eagle warriors going you can do some damage, but they can be very slow to get going early due to their high cost. If you have an aggressive neighbor as Aztec (such as Sumeria or Germany), they might be able to steamroll some city states and other AI civs quickly enough to take a big lead on you and Aztecs don't have that great of a capacity for catch up.

Regarding Germany, I think they should stay at B. I've played a number of games with Germany and my perspective on them has gone up over time. Once you are able to effectively use gold purchasing and city state conquering, they can be great at snowballing.

 

[Athmos]

I've even wondered if the AI somehow has a way of purchasing walls, since I have seen them capture a city states and have walls up within 4 or 5 turns

Well, Deity AI have a 80% boost to production, which is almost as If you always had limes on. And of course, they can use limes on top of it as well.
When you think about it "Walls in 4-5 turns" is quite expected for an average city with limes, specially as city states are normally already developed (improvements, sizeable population) and they are immediately productive when conquered.

 

[ddd123]

Why Nubia is A ?
Never tried is, is the archer early rush or district that makes it strong?
The improvement looks very weak and hard to pull off apart from the capital (which still requires a lot of luck).