[GS] Civ Balance

[Sostratus]

Comparing that to the weaker Civs, and those poor souls just feel anemic. France, since we're using them as an example, just lacks the tools to seriously compete. Their unique unit has to be raw built (doesn't upgrade from anything) and shows up late in the game, their orientation towards spies isn't all that strong (though the +3 combat strength from the level of visibility is good), and the chateau is just terrible. Eleanor's ability nor Grand Tour are good enough to salvage the Civ. Also, it's worth noting that outside of that +3 combat strength through Cat, they have no bonuses before the Medieval Era.

Yeah. Like Egypt - a desert builder - simply pales in comparison to Nubia, a desert builder.
+15% to districts on rivers pales compared to +20% / +40% everywhere. (Yes egypt has the flood thing and wonders, but +15% is too small early on. China just straight up has them roasted in the wonder department.)
Maryannu vs Pitati. maryannu are +5str... but cost twice as much and are only more mobile if they start on flat terrain. It's just not even comparable. Sphinx vs nubian pyramid. Oh and nubia also have that mines bonus on resources and +50% ranged unit build speed and xp gain. Cleo in return provides... +4 gold on intl routes.
Hungary arguably has a much more useful river district bonus because it applies to the buildings too. It doesn't seem like such a colossal gap just glancing at the text, but in game it is yuge.We all know Nubia is much more powerful generally and you really have to twist a niche situation to come up with a way for egypt to shine brighter.

So I think it's almost less that top tier vs low tier gap is big; it's that the strong civs are beating the weak civs at their own niches. GS has brought us up to a huge number of civs, but every civ is unique- they just need number balancing mostly to bring the worst up to par.

 

[acluewithout]

Yeah. Like Egypt - a desert builder - simply pales in comparison to Nubia, a desert builder.
+15% to districts on rivers pales compared to +20% / +40% everywhere. (Yes egypt has the flood thing and wonders, but +15% is too small early on. China just straight up has them roasted in the wonder department.)
Maryannu vs Pitati. maryannu are +5str... but cost twice as much and are only more mobile if they start on flat terrain. It's just not even comparable. Sphinx vs nubian pyramid. Oh and nubia also have that mines bonus on resources and +50% ranged unit build speed and xp gain. Cleo in return provides... +4 gold on intl routes.
Hungary arguably has a much more useful river district bonus because it applies to the buildings too. It doesn't seem like such a colossal gap just glancing at the text, but in game it is yuge.We all know Nubia is much more powerful generally and you really have to twist a niche situation to come up with a way for egypt to shine brighter.

So I think it's almost less that top tier vs low tier gap is big; it's that the strong civs are beating the weak civs at their own niches. GS has brought us up to a huge number of civs, but every civ is unique- they just need number balancing mostly to bring the worst up to par.

There's an assumption here that it's a problem if two Civs have the same niche and one fills that niche better than the other. I agree with that asymption in general ... but it does get tricky.

Norway v Maori is not fun. Maori just make Norway feel "sad".

Yeah, Nubia is stronger than Egypt, primarily because Nubia is more focused on just having a strong economy. But the difference doesn't bother me much. Egypt has a unique play style based around faith and trade. Nubia is just more mines and districts. I don't mind that Nubia is better. Nubia is actually less attractive to play for all its power. Egypt feels more balanced as a Civ overall and so is more fun to play.

(That said, Egypt's river bonus could maybe be boosted to 20%. The current 15% feels a little underwhelming. Frances wonder boost could use the same buff too.)

(Also. Are Nubian Pyramids actually better than Sphinx post Feb 2019 patch? Not really going to argue the point. But. To me, they just both seem directed at really different goals. I actually think Egypt is a lot more like France - tourism victory through Wonders and UIs.)

 

[kb27787]

Yeah. Like Egypt - a desert builder - simply pales in comparison to Nubia, a desert builder.
+15% to districts on rivers pales compared to +20% / +40% everywhere. (Yes egypt has the flood thing and wonders, but +15% is too small early on. China just straight up has them roasted in the wonder department.)
Maryannu vs Pitati. maryannu are +5str... but cost twice as much and are only more mobile if they start on flat terrain. It's just not even comparable. Sphinx vs nubian pyramid. Oh and nubia also have that mines bonus on resources and +50% ranged unit build speed and xp gain. Cleo in return provides... +4 gold on intl routes.
Hungary arguably has a much more useful river district bonus because it applies to the buildings too. It doesn't seem like such a colossal gap just glancing at the text, but in game it is yuge.We all know Nubia is much more powerful generally and you really have to twist a niche situation to come up with a way for egypt to shine brighter.

So I think it's almost less that top tier vs low tier gap is big; it's that the strong civs are beating the weak civs at their own niches. GS has brought us up to a huge number of civs, but every civ is unique- they just need number balancing mostly to bring the worst up to par.

Playing peacefully, sphinx spam is pretty good now.. Coupled with monumentality Egypt is Maori-lite. Nubia doesn't generate nearly as much faith.

 

[Arent11]

-what difficulty range should the civ balance be targeted at? (Prince only? Through emperor? Etc)

In the best case, you might step into the footprints of starcraft & balance it for multiplayer. Which might require a lot of testing with humans.

-If we had a purely vanilla civ, what is the rough bonus they would need to match the power of the real civs in the game? +25% production? 2 wildcard slots? Something to anchor the balance process.

Maybe have a vanilla civ & just give every civ that gets a bonus also a negative that balances that bonus. For example, if you have a military civ, it might be bad at economy & trade, and if you have a science civ, it might be bad in espionage.

 

[Pietato]

(That said, Egypt's river bonus could maybe be boosted to 20%. The current 15% feels a little underwhelming. Frances wonder boost could use the same buff too.)

Would still suck.

 

[Victoria]

On paper they are very good but the play much less reliably strong than the top tier civs.

I find them quite reliable because I am not hunting for that perfect spot, I just want somewhere to land with fish & crab & maybe turtle. Their strength are already in place so your first city is just about getting started and with having 2 sea resource buffs you should really be making the most of them. That first builder improves 2 sea resources then goes off scouting in such an awesome speed.
Maori’s will never match Nubia for speed of conquest early but the flexibility from that starting city is large.
I only play continents and naturally Maori on Pangea may not be optimal but then humans were not exactly around in Pangea days.

 

[Disgustipated]

Looks like there will be some significant civ balance in this patch. So far I haven't been that jazzed to play vanilla or even some R&F civs, but soon I will be.

 

[Duuk]

People always have these fights about Civ balance and there just ISN'T EVER going to be a "true" civ balance for all of the reasons you've pointed out.

Ancient civs can start stronger and snowball, so the later a civ's unique abilities, buildings, or units kick in the stronger they should be, but then you'd face the problem that it would almost become "finishing move" level and people would complain and it would require a nerf.

Personally, I've always wanted civs to be generic and dynamic, so you just picked name lists at game start and let your civ gain bonuses based on how you develop, but I'm a weirdo.

 

[Phoenix1595]

In re: Egypt discussion: as an Egypt player, I can attest that they got buffed during GS. Not worrying about the negative effects of riverfloods makes life a lot easier. I do agree that there is some ahistoricity between Egypt and Nubia traits, but I don’t think the gulf is vast if you are a competent player.

If anything, I wish Egypt was slightly more religious bent, given how strongly religion existed within Egyptian culture. The sphinx offers some faith, but I always felt Egypt should have an even earlier straight-from-the-gate religious buff to ensure pantheon and early religion strength. Either make sphinxes available even earlier, or decouple the faith bonus from sphinxes and give it to floodplain tiles.