Civ Discussion - Assyria

[bengalryan9]

I gave it some thought as to whether or not to continue with the Exploration Age, or to go ahead and have a discussion on Assyria. Since we’ve had a couple of days to play around with them today’s discussion will be about Assyria so we don’t have to go back later on. Assyria is a militaristic and scientific civilization with a starting bias towards flat land with rivers. Their associated wonder is Dur-Sharrukin, which acts as a fortified district and gives +3 CS to all fortified districts in your empire. Assyria’s only automatic unlock in future ages is Abbasid.

Their unique ability is Treasures of Nineveh. This grants them a free technology any time they conquer a settlement… they no longer get free codices with certain researched techs, but one of their civics makes it so that they ALSO get a free codex when they conquer a settlement as well.
Their unique military unit is the Magarru, a chariot replacement with increased movement and the ability to move after attacking while ignoring zone of control.
Their unique civilian unit is the Turtanu, a unique commander that gives +5 CS against districts to melee and cavalry units within the command radius.
Their unique buildings are the Royal Library (which gives +3 base science, bonus science for adjacent mountains and rivers, and 2 slots for codices) and the Citadel (which gives +3 base production, counts as a fortification, and gives bonus happiness if built on flat land). Together they make the unique quarter the Ekallu, which gives +2 bonus production for each great work in that city.

Assyrian Civics:
Birtutu – unlocks the Citadel and gives access to Dur-Sharrukin, gives bonus culture (I think +2?) for each tech mastery researched, and +1 settlement limit. At mastery it also gives +5 combat strength when defending against ranged units and unlocks the Durani tradition.
Tupsarrutu – unlocks the Royal Library and the Turtanu unit (which is kind of weird, but I guess lets you ignore Discipline for a bit?), and gives you a codex any time you conquer a settlement for the first time. At mastery it gives bonus +2 happiness to science buildings, a free codex, and unlocks the Mihistu tradition.
Kiprat Arbai – gives +1 settlement limit, and +5 combat strength to magarru that are in a command radius. At mastery it gives +20% science in captured settlements, a free codex, and unlocks the Girru tradition.

Assyrian Traditions:
Durani - +1 science on fortification buildings
Mihistu – +25% production towards buildings and wonders that have great works slots
Girru – +3 production and +3 food in settlements not founded by you

What are your initial thoughts on the Assyrians? Too strong, a little weak, or just right? Find any cool strategies or unique approached with them? What leaders pair well with them, and who do you think makes for a good transition in future ages?

 

[Siptah]

It's a thematic and nice set.

It's quite good in Antiquity:
- The commander is super useful for sieges, especially before getting siege. Sadly, you still need to research Discipline for the free unit or hard build your first Turtanu.
- The Magarru is good but not great. I fought against Maya Hulche, and good quite something out of the move after attacking. But that's also maybe the optimal case.
- The unique district and buildings are quite strong. And they tie nicely into the other abilities.
- The obvious game plan to conquer and make use of great works is fun. I really enjoyed it!

The not so good comes afterwards:
- While Girru is worth something in Antiquity, it's next to useless in later ages.
- Durani also isn't great. Even when going for Day Viet and building 7 walls in a city...
- Mihistu is actually useful (almost) all game long.
- The yields of the unique district is low compared to other antiquity unique districts, which makes them not useful for Enlightenment

All in all, it's a modest to strong civ in Antiquity imho (at least in SP). For the whole game, it's one of the weaker bases (aside from ending Antiquity rather wide in most cases). The Abbasid unlock is of course one of the best unlocks, but three camels are possible in most games anyway.

I played them with Xerxes KoK, which is a really good pairing imho.

 

[bengalryan9]

I really like their unique buildings and quarter and feel like those are pretty strong, as are both of their unique units. Durani provides for easy science (though it probably loses effectiveness in later ages), and Mihistu and Girru are both decent enough bonuses.

I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of their unique ability as it feels like a "win more" kind of situation to me... if you're conquering a bunch of settlements you're probably already doing really well, so getting a bunch of free technologies and codices on top of it all is just going to help you snowball. I wish they had one other unique way to get codices (besides the ones in their civics) other than playing aggressively, but it is what it is. They do seem to have an event that can give you an extra codex upon conquering your first settlement (so you actually get two), FWIW. It feels like Assyria kind of wants to wait before hitting the warpath, too, as you'd most likely want to research Tupsarratu before capturing a bunch of settlements. Plus they feel like they are only really designed to be played in one way - you can't complete the science path without going out conquering, they have no bonuses to culture or economic paths, so you *really* need to go on the warpath (though they can still set you off well for future ages even if you don't complete the science path). Doesn't really fit my personal playstyle, and I think a bit more flexibility would be nice.

I chose Genghis Khan in my game as them and obviously he pairs really well, and I'm planning on going Abassid at the end of the age which also makes a lot of sense.

 

[Doratov]

The Girru can still be good in Exploration, I picked the extra relic slot for science building enhancer, and with conquering as the Mongols, I built almost all the wonders, and have 35 relics near the end of the age.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Strongest Civ in the game.

That's the assessment.

They get a +4 Production UB, and a science UB with extremely easy adjacencies. Anyone can turn that into an advantage. By turn 60-70 you have so much production in your capital you can muster your army in no time, get a second commander and go beat up the weakest neighbour.

 

[disjointaccount]

The actual quarter bonus is kind of a nothingburger but it doesn't matter when they have the two best yields as ageless unique buildings, especially with the science having such easy adjacencies.

Throw in the fantastic commander and units and they're absolutely cracked. The actual ability about codices is neither here nor there. It's nice on paper to have a way to fill out one path while you complete another, but it's not as though they'd be lacking science anyway. I think something like that works better with the likes of Fritz, where science Fritz gets free culture paths and vice versa.

The buildings and units are so good though. I'm not sure if they top Maya, but they're definitely up there.

 

[Giskler]

Super OP. Also, if you don't build Dur-Sharrukin you get a quest to go conquer the city it's built in, which I thought was funny. I wonder if they added similar quests for all civs and their associated wonders?

 

[disjointaccount]

Super OP. Also, if you don't build Dur-Sharrukin you get a quest to go conquer the city it's built in, which I thought was funny. I wonder if they added similar quests for all civs and their associated wonders?

Iirc a quest like this triggers for every civ if your associated wonder gets stolen when you were 75% or more of the way through building it

 

[Leucarum]

They probably need a balance pass on their quarter at least. The UQ can get bananas adjacencies. That said they have a very fun take on science so... Just like Maya their mechanics are potent but very, very fun! And since the AI likely won't take as much advantage of their bonuses... Maybe they're fine? Easy mode, but fine.

 

[bengalryan9]

They probably need a balance pass on their quarter at least. The UQ can get bananas adjacencies. That said they have a very fun take on science so... Just like Maya their mechanics are potent but very, very fun! And since the AI likely won't take as much advantage of their bonuses... Maybe they're fine? Easy mode, but fine.

Good point about the AI - the science legacy path is one I see the AI do pretty well in but I'm not so sure an AI Assyria will be able to finish it. A human player that takes codices from events would need to conquer 4 settlements to get to 10 codices IIRC... I'm not sure an AI opponent is going to do that all that often, and that's assuming the AI even gets the free codices from events (which I have no idea if they do or not).

 

[pjotroos]

Looks like I'm less enthused than most. Great yields on the unique quarter, but the traditions are so-so. And on the whole, they are strong, but in a fairly generic matter, while also being less flexible than most of the antiquity civs. No bonuses to culture or economy paths, no real bonuses to combat (outside of wall breaking), so those three conditions play same as always. Meanwhile, science is effectively removed as a separate path and merged into conquest.

Not a bad pick, very streamlined, nice for the extra settlement cap, but it challenge me to do anything I wouldn't do for a regular conquest round, and it didn't really make them much easier, in a way some of the outright dominations civs do.

 

[disjointaccount]

A human player that takes codices from events would need to conquer 4 settlements to get to 10 codices IIRC

I think 4 sounds about right for most games but this got me thinking about the theoretical minimum and I think it's 1 lol
- One codex from "One must write every day to improve" event
- One codex from writing ii event
- One codex from science CS bonus
- One codex from literacy
- One codex from building nalanda
- Three codices from Assyria unique civic tree
- Two codices from conquering a single settlement having gotten the event to earn an extra codex from the next settlement conquered

I think those are all the ways they can get codices? Might have forgotten something

 

[bengalryan9]

I think 4 sounds about right for most games but this got me thinking about the theoretical minimum and I think it's 1 lol
- One codex from "One must write every day to improve" event
- One codex from writing ii event
- One codex from science CS bonus
- One codex from literacy
- One codex from building nalanda
- Three codices from Assyria unique civic tree
- Two codices from conquering a single settlement having gotten the event to earn an extra codex from the next settlement conquered

I think those are all the ways they can get codices? Might have forgotten something

True, I don't include the city state bonus or Nalanda (which is tough to build IMO). Literacy might be tough for Assyria to reach, but it's doable.

 

[Leucarum]

When I played them I built 2 cities and conquered the rest. There's an interesting push your luck game where you need to get your key civics online but can't wait too long before pouncing on your target since they'll outpace you very quickly if you are starting quite tall...

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, I had a few failed starts with them, then got one through. Ended up with 2 settled, and conquered the rest. I think I ended up with like 14 by the end of the era. I tried the tactic I saw which was to rush my uniques, unlock the commander, hard build the first one, so that the free one you get is more expensive. I'm not sure it's worth it, while the buildings and UQ are worth getting down early, by the time it takes to build the commander, and then circle back to time it with the free one, and getting the UQ down, I basically had 2 commanders but no units to command. I think it probably makes sense to stick more traditional, and worry about hard-building the second commander a little later once you have gotten the foundation of your empire going.

UB/UQ is definitely strong, although I don't think it's better than like Carthage or Maya. It's hard to get more than 3 rivers, more often you're really only getting 2, especially trying to balance it with other adjacencies. It doesn't count the tile you place it on as adjacency, so finding a spot with 4 rivers was incredibly tough, and when you do, it's often blocked by a resource, or on a rough tile (so you decide between the science adjacency vs the happiness bonus). I do still always run into the trouble that I plan every settlement for the UB, though... sometimes I have to remember that not everything is turning into a city.

IMO the Magarru is crazy strong. Basically what you do is get your commander with Initiative load it up with 4 chariots, and basically you can unload, attack, and pack back in the commander, and you can just pound direct, and don't have to try to coordinate to circle around, or find spots for multiple of them to attack. And because you can pack them back into the commander after, even if they end with like 12 hp, you don't need to worry about an opponent archer or legion sniping them. Especially with the bonus to city attacks, I found the best strategy was basically rush the city centre, take out the settlement, and then worry about cleaning up their nearby troops after.

The traditions are so-so. Fortification buildings I rarely if ever build, I don't know if I'd get enough fortifications to make it worthwhile to use. And since the conquered settlements reset every era, that tradition only matters later in the era, and flat +3 just doesn't mean as much the next era. Never mind that since you're probably running over your settlement limits earlier, odds are the exploration you're better to pick a turtle to build up your acquired lands. Production to buildings with a great work slot is also a little hit or miss. I think it's probably deceptively good since some of those exploration wonders with a slot are strong, you can get them almost as if they were your civ's wonder with that bonus.

All in all, production + science always have been king in civ games, and they always will be. So any civ that gets bonuses to them is bound to be a strong civ. And I'm a big fan of civs that change up the regular pace of things, so I do really like their "conquer for a codex" kit.

 

[Menocchio]

They probably need a balance pass on their quarter at least. The UQ can get bananas adjacencies. That said they have a very fun take on science so... Just like Maya their mechanics are potent but very, very fun! And since the AI likely won't take as much advantage of their bonuses... Maybe they're fine? Easy mode, but fine.

Technically speaking, the UB's Science adjacencies are pretty ordinary: mostly you'll find +3 adjacencies from bends in rivers, and you'll tear your hair out trying to settle for specific golden spots (even if it's really fun). In the long-term, Science and Culture are the least valuable adjacency types in terms of where you want to put specialists.

Assyria is a great civ overall, but I wouldn't call them OP. They're just very elegantly designed. Everything clicks into place easily and makes intuitive sense, where plenty of other civs feel kind of kludged together. Ideally, more of the civs in the game would feel like Assyria; they're strong in a different way than pre-nerf Maya, which really was just settle > get science > get production > win.

 

[pjotroos]

Now that I've played through exploration - Durani tradition looked weak on the whole, but it synergises really well with Ming's great wall.
I picked them as a follow up purely to continue the science game, and - without really gunning for it - I ended up getting a chunky bit of extra science at the start of modern.

 

[Calcifer]

Now that I've played through exploration - Durani tradition looked weak on the whole, but it synergises really well with Ming's great wall.
I picked them as a follow up purely to continue the science game, and - without really gunning for it - I ended up getting a chunky bit of extra science at the start of modern.

View attachment 738433

So it does work with improvements too? I was wondering about that.

 

[UWHabs]

So it does work with improvements too? I was wondering about that.

As long as it counts as a fortification, I guess. Similar to how the Ming Great Wall gets +1 gold for each adjacent fortification, if you put a wall on a district next to the Great Wall, the Great Wall gets the +1 as well from it.

 

[Sagax]

So it does work with improvements too? I was wondering about that.

The emphasis is on the "fortification" part. If anything in the game is counted as such, then it works. This is why Forbidden City is somewhat worth it with Ming and not so much with other civs.

All fortifications in this game as of now:
- Ancient Walls
- Medieval Walls
- Defensive Fortifications ("Modern Walls")
- Bulgarian Hidden Fortress
- Han Great Wall
- Ming Great Wall
- Norman Motte
- Norman Bailey
- Military CS Hillfort
- Military CS Kasbah
- Dur-Sharrukin
- Red Fort
- Thanh Hue