Civ Discussion - Songhai

[bengalryan9]

Only two more exploration civilizations left to go, and up next are the Songhai. The Songhai are an economic and militaristic civilization with a starting bias towards desert, plains, navigable rivers, and coastal terrain. Their associated wonder is the Tomb of Askia, which gives +2 base gold, +2 resource slots in the settlement it is built, and +2 gold and +1 production for every resource assigned to the settlement. The Songhai can be unlocked by playing as Aksum, Egypt, Amina, Ibn Battuta, Harriet Tubman, or Hatshepsut, or by having 3 settlements with at least 3 navigable river tiles each. They automatically unlock Buganda in the Modern Age.

Their unique ability is Tarikh Al-Sudan, which gives +2 resource slots in cities on navigable rivers, +3 gold for every active trade route, and immunity to plundering for trade ships on navigable rivers.
Their unique military unit is the Gold Bangles Infantry, a swordsman replacement that gets +5 CS on resource tiles and +100% gold from pillaging trade routes.
Their unique civilian unit is the Tajiro, a merchant that gives +100 gold if creating a trade route with at least one navigable river tile.
Their unique infrastructure is the Caravanserai, which gives a base +5 gold as well as +1 bonus gold for every adjacent navigable river or resource tile.

Songhai civics:
Ships of the Desert – unlocks the Caravanserai, the Tomb of Askia, and the Timbuktu tradition. At mastery, it unlocks the Mud Brick tradition and gives +2 gold to Caravanserais in settlements with a bazaar.
Hi-koi – gives +5 CS to units on navigable rivers. At mastery, it unlocks the Isa tradition and makes it so that rivers do not end your unit movement.
Kanta – increases the gold gained by the Tajiro by 100, gives +1 settlement limit, and makes it so that cities in homelands on navigable rivers generate treasure convoys worth 2 victory points each

Songhai traditions:
Timbuktu - +2 gold on mines if there is at least one gold building in the city
Mud Brick - +50% production towards constructing gold buildings
Isa - +2 movement to all units on navigable rivers

Thoughts on the Songhai? Strong, weak, or just right? What are your favorite or least favorite parts of their kit? Which leaders and civs from other ages make for good complements to them? Share your thoughts below!

 

[Leucarum]

I heard you like money with your money?

The main reason I'll play some exploration is if there's a good Songhai start. Honestly though, their best feature is making a painful legacy path trivial, so they probably need a rework to keep them interesting as the game evolves.

Definite contender for the best music in the game.

 

[bengalryan9]

I haven't played Songhai since their treasure fleets/convoys got buffed so I can't really comment on that, though obviously that's the most intriguing part of their kit. On the other hand, this does mean choosing them is going to be fairly map dependent. Obviously you'd want to rush straight for Kanta as early as possible. Extra resources slots on their cities is definitely nice, too, as is Tomb of Askia (though I find it's pretty easy to build this as any civ).

As for unique units, the Tajiro is fine. That's a really easy gold bonus to get that can give you a nice little leg up early in the age (especially now that you don't even need to research anything to unlock them at the start of the age). At first I thought the bonus to their Gold Bangles Infantry wasn't anything special, but resource tiles are pretty much all over the map so it's not like that would be difficult to take advantage of.

Traditions are nothing special and seem like the weakest part of their kit IMO.

 

[bengalryan9]

Honestly though, their best feature is making a painful legacy path trivial, so they probably need a rework to keep them interesting as the game evolves.

I think the convoys should have to travel to the capital, or at least to another city. Slows things down a tad and would give opposing a players a way to defend against them (ie, by trying to catch and pillage them).

 

[Siptah]

Songhai is one of my favorite civs. It‘s easy to set up in antiquity, you get more money that you can spend, and you can settle more freely in the distant lands. As mentioned, they also have great music - in addition to a great art style.

 

[Haig]

Haven't tried them yet but the river-focused playstyle looks good.

In Civ 5 their UA was called River warlords but didn't have much to do with rivers by the way!

 

[Chefofrats]

Their gold generation is through the roof. When I last played them, as Amina, in the latter part of the age I was generating something like 4000 gold per turn. I could basically found a town, convert it to a city, and buy all available districts and buildings every few turns. When I exceeded my settlement limit, I bought 10 army commanders and admirals, and then I just let the gold pile up, because what else was there? I think I had 100k in the bank when the age ended, and it all went poof.

I also generated some 80 treasure fleets. Crazy stuff.

 

[disjointaccount]

Big fan of Songhai. Printing treasure fleets just feels good. That's all there really is to it for me. THe other aspects of their kit are perfectly respectable, but their defining aspect (and the part that's by far most fun for me) is the treasure fleets. I hope we get more civs (and leaders!) who mix things up with legacy path completion.

 

[Krikkit1]

Big fan of Songhai. Printing treasure fleets just feels good. That's all there really is to it for me. THe other aspects of their kit are perfectly respectable, but their defining aspect (and the part that's by far most fun for me) is the treasure fleets. I hope we get more civs (and leaders!) who mix things up with legacy path completion.

Songhai and Inca should probably have that ability refined to be
Homeland Settlements with X terrain And Treasure resources will generate Treasure convoys... that have to be cashed in at another civs settlement (that you have a Trade route to /from)

 

[Siptah]

Songhai and Inca should probably have that ability refined to be
Homeland Settlements with X terrain And Treasure resources will generate Treasure convoys... that have to be cashed in at another civs settlement (that you have a Trade route to /from)

Why though? You get the treasure from that terrain and can use it directly in your cities. There's no need to ship it around your empire to use it. We could argue that they have to be cashed in in cities and not towns, but that is almost a given as the ability only works with cities iirc.

Aside from no delay between generation and cashing in, this has two bonuses for Songhai and Incas: you don't use treasures to the pestilence crisis and they can't be captured while in war. Both make sense to me.

 

[bengalryan9]

Why though? You get the treasure from that terrain and can use it directly in your cities. There's no need to ship it around your empire to use it. We could argue that they have to be cashed in in cities and not towns, but that is almost a given as the ability only works with cities iirc.

Aside from no delay between generation and cashing in, this has two bonuses for Songhai and Incas: you don't use treasures to the pestilence crisis and they can't be captured while in war. Both make sense to me.

Why spawn convoys at all if there's no risk or even a reason to move them? The ability could just directly reward points towards the legacy path and skip spawning the convoys altogether.

 

[Siptah]

Why spawn convoys at all if there's no risk or even a reason to move them? The ability could just directly reward points towards the legacy path and skip spawning the convoys altogether.

I thought about this as well. But I think if it is completely passive und just progressing in the back, it‘s not really interesting? Even if I cash them in immediately, there‘s still a small adrenaline rush every 8 turns.

 

[bengalryan9]

I thought about this as well. But I think if it is completely passive und just progressing in the back, it‘s not really interesting? Even if I cash them in immediately, there‘s still a small adrenaline rush every 8 turns.

Make it a narrative event when the points are automatically awarded. That would have the added impact of making them a really good pairing with Jose Rizal, the Oracle, or both.

 

[UWHabs]

It would be annoying to have narrative events pop up that commonly. You could silently award the points every 8 turns as an alternative, but it's probably more work than just spawning the unit. It might be fun to give them a different way to cash in, or if they tagged them so that every treasure convoy had a continent that it was linked to, and simply everyone had to cash in a treasure convoy in a land distant to where it was generated.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Yeah, I think generated treasure convoys are fine. You only need two clicks to interact with them, similar to how you'd interact with the narrative event, but treasure convoys fit the overall structure of the age and historical basis. Songhai were generating wealth through river trade, while Inca did it by living in mountains (that's oversimplification, of course, but suitable for the game model).

 

[Krikkit1]

I thought about this as well. But I think if it is completely passive und just progressing in the back, it‘s not really interesting? Even if I cash them in immediately, there‘s still a small adrenaline rush every 8 turns.

Which is why it would be better if you had to cash them in in another civs settlement. (Trade partner)

 

[Leucarum]

The treasure convoys smack of being the simplest way Firaxis could find to implement their idea within the framework they'd created. It does feel a little clunky but honestly it is very low down the list of things which would be good to change in Civ7