Civ Ideas & Suggestions Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread

[Zaarin]

Despite the harsh climate, the Turpan soil is fertile and vineyards flourish throughout the area. More than a dozen different types of grapes are grown here, and the water the grapes need to grow is brought to their vines by an ancient irrigation system called the karez, or ‘well’, in the Uyghur language.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20170307-an-ancient-oasis-in-chinas-remote-desert

I was confused for a moment when seeing Turpan described as "ancient China." I think I lose 10,000 social credits for forgetting that Xinjiang is currently part of China. Anyway, yes, and methods of desert irrigation were also used in ancient Yemen, by the Classical Berbers, and even by the Guanches, the neolithic natives of the Canaries (not desert per se but still quite arid).

 

[Thormodr]

I was confused for a moment when seeing Turpan described as "ancient China." I think I lose 10,000 social credits for forgetting that Xinjiang is currently part of China. Anyway, yes, and methods of desert irrigation were also used in ancient Yemen, by the Classical Berbers, and even by the Guanches, the neolithic natives of the Canaries (not desert per se but still quite arid).

Well, that's the BBC for you. These irrigation systems were created long before the Chinese invaded the region and subjugated it, yeah.

Anyway, some form of desert irrigation or a Turpan city state that gave you a grapes ammenity and the ability to construct a special aqueduct or tile improvement would be cool.

 

[Zaarin]

Anyway, some form of desert irrigation or a Turpan city state that gave you a grapes ammenity and the ability to construct a special aqueduct or tile improvement would be cool.

As cool as it is that the Tocharians (probably?) were able to tend grapes in the Taklamakan Desert, Wine should probably stay a general luxury given how widespread its cultivation is--though perhaps a Turpan city-state could have a special ability similar to Maui's that allows limited planting of Wine on Desert tiles (that'd be a fun combination with Petra ). Since we're unlikely to see a Loulan civ (fun as that might be) and since Turfan was not part of Kushan, Sogdia, or the other major Central Asian civs, I think it's a prime candidate for a city-state once Kabul and Samarqand are incorporated into the Durrani (Afghani) and Sogdian/Hepthalite civs respectively. That's going to happen...right, Firaxis?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As cool as it is that the Tocharians (probably?) were able to tend grapes in the Taklamakan Desert, Wine should probably stay a general luxury given how widespread its cultivation is--though perhaps a Turpan city-state could have a special ability similar to Maui's that allows limited planting of Wine on Desert tiles (that'd be a fun combination with Petra ). Since we're unlikely to see a Loulan civ (fun as that might be) and since Turfan was not part of Kushan, Sogdia, or the other major Central Asian civs, I think it's a prime candidate for a city-state once Kabul and Samarqand are incorporated into the Durrani (Afghani) and Sogdian/Hepthalite civs respectively. That's going to happen...right, Firaxis?

The wine grape, Vitis vinera, seems to have originated in one place - the Caucasus in modern Armenia, was being used to make wine there by 6000 BCE, and spread from there east, south, and west. So, if Civ VII were to start early, that could be one Resource, like Cotton, Horses and a few others, that is originally only found in one or a few spots on the map, but spreads fast. On the other hand, by 7000 BCE they were making 'wine' in China from other types of grapes and fruits, so take your pick on how to handle the 'Wine Resource'. Just remember that the 'real' Wine Grape and wine made from it quickly superseded every other type of local fermented fruit drink everywhere it appeared and has provided a major and lucrative trade item ever since the Phoenicians - who are credited with spreading wine to Egypt and southwestern Europe. (Except Sicily, which somehow got the grape earlier than the Phoenicians did and were already merrily incorporating wine into their parties and rituals before the first bireme crossed their beaches)

 

[PiR]

So, if Civ VII were to start early, that could be one Resource, like Cotton, Horses and a few others, that is originally only found in one or a few spots on the map, but spreads fast.

How? Trade would be best but there's no(t much) early trade in Civ. Via scouts? Sounds weird.

 

[Zaarin]

The wine grape, Vitis vinera, seems to have originated in one place - the Caucasus in modern Armenia, was being used to make wine there by 6000 BCE, and spread from there east, south, and west. So, if Civ VII were to start early, that could be one Resource, like Cotton, Horses and a few others, that is originally only found in one or a few spots on the map, but spreads fast. On the other hand, by 7000 BCE they were making 'wine' in China from other types of grapes and fruits, so take your pick on how to handle the 'Wine Resource'. Just remember that the 'real' Wine Grape and wine made from it quickly superseded every other type of local fermented fruit drink everywhere it appeared and has provided a major and lucrative trade item ever since the Phoenicians - who are credited with spreading wine to Egypt and southwestern Europe. (Except Sicily, which somehow got the grape earlier than the Phoenicians did and were already merrily incorporating wine into their parties and rituals before the first bireme crossed their beaches)

I actually considered mentioning Tbilisi as a potential city-state to give Wine, but I decided to simply suggest it be a general resource. (Incidentally, Lebanon and Israel are still major wine producers, having an excellent climate for grapes and non-Muslim majority populations--albeit the Christian population of Lebanon is shrinking while the Shi'a population is growing.)

How? Trade would be best but there's no(t much) early trade in Civ. Via scouts? Sounds weird.

I don't know the best way to handle it, but spreading resources really is a thing that Firaxis needs to figure out how to manage because any resource that can be grown elsewhere will be--whether it's silk in Anatolia or chocolate in Africa or coffee in Sumatra.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I actually considered mentioning Tbilisi as a potential city-state to give Wine, but I decided to simply suggest it be a general resource. (Incidentally, Lebanon and Israel are still major wine producers, having an excellent climate for grapes and non-Muslim majority populations--albeit the Christian population of Lebanon is shrinking while the Shi'a population is growing.)


I don't know the best way to handle it, but spreading resources really is a thing that Firaxis needs to figure out how to manage because any resource that can be grown elsewhere will be--whether it's silk in Anatolia or chocolate in Africa or coffee in Sumatra.

Been thinking about the same thing, in that trade was going on so very early and, from what little the archeological evidence tells us, so frequently on a very 'unofficial' basis, that it requires a different mechanism from the limited and State-Based Trade Routes that Civ has now.

One possibility, and it ties in with earlier discussions of Less Than City identities on the map, would be to have potential trade with permanent Settlements - single-tile 'towns/camps' that take the place of both the current Barbarian Camps and the ephemeral 'Goodie Huts'. A Settlement could, for example, exploit any neighboring Resource, and if you made friends with them through diplomacy, bribery, or doing them a favor (beating up their enemies?) then they would 'trade' the resource to you. That trade would be fairly disorganized, so you wouldn't get any Gold or Food or Production from it, but you would get access to the Resource to plant or pasture it in your own territory or slowly accumulate it to use it to build Units. To get all the benefits from the Resource (Gold, Production, Food, Culture, Religion, etc), you'd have to establish a 'regular' Trade Route, which you could do with Settlements, City States, or other Civs.

Something like this would allow for quite a bit of early spreading of Resources from their original locations. like the spread of wine Grapes from Armenia all the way to (western) China and western Europe or the spread of ridable horses from central Asia all across Europe and the Middle East and into India, North Africa, etc.

 

[Thormodr]

As cool as it is that the Tocharians (probably?) were able to tend grapes in the Taklamakan Desert, Wine should probably stay a general luxury given how widespread its cultivation is--though perhaps a Turpan city-state could have a special ability similar to Maui's that allows limited planting of Wine on Desert tiles (that'd be a fun combination with Petra ). Since we're unlikely to see a Loulan civ (fun as that might be) and since Turfan was not part of Kushan, Sogdia, or the other major Central Asian civs, I think it's a prime candidate for a city-state once Kabul and Samarqand are incorporated into the Durrani (Afghani) and Sogdian/Hepthalite civs respectively. That's going to happen...right, Firaxis?

I said a grapes ammenity. Wine can be a separate one. Just like we have cloves and spices as separate amnenities.

But a special limited use improvement for desert tiles would be even cooler.

 

[Zaarin]

I said a grapes ammenity. Wine can be a separate one. Just like we have cloves and spices as separate amnenities.

Grapes were used almost solely for the production of Wine until modern time such that Grapes and Wine are essentially the same thing, whereas Cloves and Cinnamon are simply two kinds of spices or Jade is simply one kind of Gemstone. (Kind of interesting the ones they chose to separate out--e.g., seems like if any spice deserved to be separated out of Spices it's Saffron, the most expensive spice in the world that is also a Dye and a medicinal plant.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Grapes were used almost solely for the production of Wine until modern time such that Grapes and Wine are essentially the same thing, whereas Cloves and Cinnamon are simply two kinds of spices or Jade is simply one kind of Gemstone. (Kind of interesting the ones they chose to separate out--e.g., seems like if any spice deserved to be separated out of Spices it's Saffron, the most expensive spice in the world that is also a Dye and a medicinal plant.)

Spices are a peculiar problem: there are so many of them you either lump them all together into a single 'resource' or you have to constantly be calculating how much is too much.

Going strictly by what spices seem to have been trade/used the longest, the earliest seem to have been:

Black Pepper and Cinnamon - 2000 BCE in India and East Asia
Cloves - 1700 BC in Mesopotamia
Saffron - 1600 BCE at least - 'saffron gatherers' are shown on a fresco in Akrotiri in the Minoan Civilization.

By about 500 - 300 BCE the Persians were using Saffron as a spice, dye, perfume, and medicinal tea or body wash

 

[Zaarin]

Spices are a peculiar problem: there are so many of them you either lump them all together into a single 'resource' or you have to constantly be calculating how much is too much.

Going strictly by what spices seem to have been trade/used the longest, the earliest seem to have been:

Black Pepper and Cinnamon - 2000 BCE in India and East Asia
Cloves - 1700 BC in Mesopotamia
Saffron - 1600 BCE at least - 'saffron gatherers' are shown on a fresco in Akrotiri in the Minoan Civilization.

By about 500 - 300 BCE the Persians were using Saffron as a spice, dye, perfume, and medicinal tea or body wash

I don't have an exact date, but black cumin (Nigella sativa) can be dated to a similar timeframe as a Phoenician shipwreck bound for Egypt was carrying it. I believe it's also been found in Egyptian tombs. Cumin proper (Cuminum cyminum) must also date from around the same time since its name is from Akkadian.

At any rate, I think it makes sense to lump Spices together, but if one were to be separated I think Saffron is the obvious choice (for its expense and for its multiplicity of uses). Cinnamon and Black Pepper would probably be my next choices; Cinnamon for similar reasons to Saffron (in addition to being a Spice, it was also a common ingredient in Incense--such as Jewish ketoret and some recipes for Egyptian temple incense), Black Pepper simply for how sought-after it was.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't have an exact date, but black cumin (Nigella sativa) can be dated to a similar timeframe as a Phoenician shipwreck bound for Egypt was carrying it. I believe it's also been found in Egyptian tombs. Cumin proper (Cuminum cyminum) must also date from around the same time since its name is from Akkadian.

At any rate, I think it makes sense to lump Spices together, but if one were to be separated I think Saffron is the obvious choice (for its expense and for its multiplicity of uses). Cinnamon and Black Pepper would probably be my next choices; Cinnamon for similar reasons to Saffron (in addition to being a Spice, it was also a common ingredient in Incense--such as Jewish ketoret and some recipes for Egyptian temple incense), Black Pepper simply for how sought-after it was.

In addition to obvious Luxury Food effects, many spices also had important 'secondary' effects which I think would be the primary criteria for making them separate Resources:
Saffron - as stated, was also used as a dye, perfume, and medicinal tea or bath
Nutmeg, Cloves, Mace, Anise, Pepper and Cinnamon - are insecticidal, and so very handy as anti-disease/plague agents
Pepper and Salt - both preservatives for other foods like meat and fish

- and so on.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Add on:
Black Cumin seeds, in fact, were found in the now-submerged archeological site of Atlit-Yam off the coast of modern Israel dating back to before 5000 BCE and in New Kingdom Egypt sites (so, after about 1500 BCE) to which it may have been spread from Mesopotamia, where seeds have been found in sites dating from 2000 - 1500 BCE. They have managed to identify an ideogram in Linear A that seems to refer to Cumin and evidence of it in the Palace storerooms in Crete. It was one of the most popular spices used in both Classical Greece and Rome (it seems to have been their relatively cheap substitute for black pepper as a flavoring).
The Egyptians used it as a preservative in mummies in addition to a food seasoning.

 

[Thormodr]

Grapes were used almost solely for the production of Wine until modern time such that Grapes and Wine are essentially the same thing, whereas Cloves and Cinnamon are simply two kinds of spices or Jade is simply one kind of Gemstone. (Kind of interesting the ones they chose to separate out--e.g., seems like if any spice deserved to be separated out of Spices it's Saffron, the most expensive spice in the world that is also a Dye and a medicinal plant.)

Grapes were used almost exclusively to make wine until modern times? I find that very hard to believe.

-----
Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics record the cultivation of purple grapes, and history attests to the ancient Greeks, Cypriots, Phoenicians, and Romans growing purple grapes both for eating and wine production.[8] The growing of grapes would later spread to other regions in Europe, as well as North Africa, and eventually in North America.

In 2005 a team of archaeologists concluded that some Chalcolithic wine jars, which were discovered in Cyprus in the 1930s, were the oldest of their kind in the world, dating back to 3,500 BC.[9] Moreover, Commandaria, a sweet dessert wine from Cyprus, is the oldest manufactured wine in the world, its origins traced as far back as 2000 BC.[10]

In North America, native grapes belonging to various species of the genus Vitis proliferate in the wild across the continent, and were a part of the diet of many Native Americans, but were considered by early European colonists to be unsuitable for wine. In the 19th century, Ephraim Bull of Concord, Massachusetts, cultivated seeds from wild Vitis labrusca vines to create the Concord grape which would become an important agricultural crop in the United States.[11]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape

Apple trees, olives, and pomegranate trees were brought to Egypt from foreign territories to grow in the fertile lands of Ancient Egypt with the help of the annual flooding of the Nile river.

Fruits rich in sugar and vitamins, such as grapes, melon, dates, and figs, were planted and grown on a large scale to feed the entire population.

The higher class of Ancient Egypt imported coconuts which were regarded as luxury goods. It was costly, and even the higher class did not have much of it. However, the documentation of fruits in Egyptian tombs shows the variety of fruits present, which was vast.

https://historyten.com/ancient-egypt/ancient-egyptian-food/


Read more: https://historyten.com/ancient-egypt/ancient-egyptian-food/#ixzz7FCFQMP4M

So, many ancient cultures all over the world (Asia, Europe, Africa and North America) grew grapes for eating and not just for wine.

Anyway, I find it fascinating that upper class Egyptians enjoyed imported coconuts. Will have to do some research into where they imported them from.

I love coconut and dates. That could be a luxury resource or have a city state somehow affiliated with coconuts and dates.

 

[Playsoneasy]

Just a few rather out-there ideas.

Bring back sliders. Seriously, sliders are an excellent way of giving the player control over their empire's spending priorities and allow them to influence culture, science or the treasury. Heck, I'd go further and introduce some sort of taxation mechanism for things like trade routes, luxury resources and commodities which could, while raising money for the treasury adversely impact on happiness and your relations with other civs.

Another idea is the ability to make formal territorial claims, especially in later eras. You could perhaps draw borders within which you claim an exclusive right to settle (for example) and these could include tribal villages and even city states within their scope. You could even name whole geographic features such as lakes and mountain ranges yourself, with different civs having their own names for them.

Also, borders, again especially in later eras could be fixed irrespective of cultural influences and only change via international treaty or conquest. Whole cities within your empire could have the culture or cultures of your neighbours but remain firmly within your (political) borders, with appropriate impacts on happiness.

Oh, and please please please get rid of 1UPT.

As far as the above and the potential for stacks-of-doom re-emerging, why not have a "unit weight" assigned to each unit and a support limit for each tile. If a stack crosses a tile that can't support it then that stack suffers damage (similar to how some terrains in Civ 4 would inflict damage on units).

 

[Thormodr]

I would like to see some of the ice melt at the top and bottom of the map because of global warming in the game. That way, one could possibly create northern or southern shipping routes that weren't there before.

If not, then I would like to see ice breaker ships or at the very least have submarines or perhaps nuclear submarines be able to go beneath the ice. Sometimes there are goody huts on little islands trapped in ice bound places.

 

[PiR]

If not, then I would like to see ice breaker ships or at the very least have submarines or perhaps nuclear submarines be able to go beneath the ice. Sometimes there are goody huts on little islands trapped in ice bound places.

And a civilization that can build nuclear submarine will get a free tech from meeting the inhabitants of that hut?

 

[Zaarin]

And a civilization that can build nuclear submarine will get a free tech from meeting the inhabitants of that hut?

"The inhabitants of this village have taught you the secrets of Nuclear Fusion!"

 

[Thormodr]

And a civilization that can build nuclear submarine will get a free tech from meeting the inhabitants of that hut?

I'd settle for a free builder or a bit of gold. A sub with the coastal raid promotion could get you over 100 gold.

Oh and yes, there is always the possibility of getting some high level tech or boost. Lol. Part of the game that makes Civ awesome.

Anyway, icebreaking ships and subs that can travel under ice, please Firaxis.

 

[Thormodr]

I am currently playing a OCC (One city challenge) with Canada. I had a 14 deer opening start and couldn't resist. After I built the temple of Artemis, I was off to the races.

Anyway, I like to build railroads. I was hoping to get the era score from connecting two cities. I build a connection to the nearest city state but it didn't count.

So, yes it is a very small thing, I would like connecting your capital to another city (city state or AI) to trigger the bonus era score.

Also, would like to be able to build resource/luxury outposts. I think they had them in Civ III and I was fond of them. It would certainly help the OCC, a bit.