Civ IV Reviewed On IGN!!! (you Will Be Very Happy! :) :) :)

[Pragmatic]

Look, guys, if you want realism, go attack an army base on horseback. As it is, you're already accepting that a Sherman tank was the equal of an M1-A1 Abrams, as they are both lumped under the category of "armor." Me, I want some abstract combat. And I'm willing to accept some simplifications to get there.

Will knights defeat helicopters occasionally? Yes, they will. Hopefully, not so often as before. If it's a low-percentage chance, I can handle it. (Though, personally, I wish they'd put in a double-check: if [chances of winning] < 5% then [automatic loss]. That would eliminate this nonsense.)

As for modern units having no bonus against obsolete mounted units: I would take a modern unit with no bonus, but a strength of 10, rather than keep around archers, with 50% bonus, but a strength of 5. Just because no modern unit has a bonus against mounted units, doesn't mean modern units are helpless against those mounted units.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Well if it does work that way, then it should take about 3 or 4 strength 10 to take down a strength 15 unit. (because 'Combat Value' is effectively strength^3) so instead of 15 v. 10 it is closer to 3375 v. 1000 (rounding fudges things though)... just the first 10 unit will have almost no chance of survival

Also it means that a +50% v, unit X triples your effective combat value
and the Combat 1 promotion (+10% Strength->+~33% Combat Value) is equivalent from going from a Regular (3 hp) to a Veteran (4 hp) in Civ 3

Of course this does mean that tech will be VERY important in Warfare. The higher tech unit will not always win but the higher tech army almost always will (unless they use bad strategy (attaking Pikemen/Halberdiers with Cavalry, Not using artillery to bombard cities before attacking, etc.))

Yes, I understood the implications of your first post. I don't mind the bigger difference between modern and ancient units. I would only like to see this difference in combat strength shown by the unit strength number.

If a modern armor in Civ4 is strong enough to beat 1000 spearmen without healing than I would like to see a strength score of say 3 for the spearman and 3000 for the modern armor. If you're correct than a strength 30 modern armor is capable of destroying 1000 strength 3 spearman (without healing). This makes estimating the strength of a group of units quite difficult.

But I'll wait a few more days till the game arrives in Europe and take a look at the combat calculations myself.

Edit: We talked about the same subject a few months ago.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes, I understood the implications of your first post. I don't mind the bigger difference between modern and ancient units. I would only like to see this difference in combat strength shown by the unit strength number.

If a modern armor in Civ4 is strong enough to beat 1000 spearmen without healing than I would like to see a strength score of say 3 for the spearman and 3000 for the modern armor. If you're correct than a strength 30 modern armor is capable of destroying 1000 strength 3 spearman (without healing). This makes estimating the strength of a group of units quite difficult.

But I'll wait a few more days till the game arrives in Europe and take a look at the combat calculations myself.

Edit: We talked about the same subject a few months ago.

I Very much agree, (Ideally the way to do it would be to have each unit damage the other one in each round ie each unit hits. Give all units ~100 hit points. The amount of damage done is 20*A/(A+B) to unit B and 20*B/(A+B) to unit A... Have a coin toss (50/50) each round allowing one unit to do triple damage, and
wala, a healthy unit of strength over 3X will Never (mathematically) lose to a healthy unit of strength X, there is still randomness and the Actual combat value of units A+B are their strengths (adjusted for hp)

 

[Roland Johansen]

I Very much agree, (Ideally the way to do it would be to have each unit damage the other one in each round ie each unit hits. Give all units ~100 hit points. The amount of damage done is 20*A/(A+B) to unit B and 20*B/(A+B) to unit A... Have a coin toss (50/50) each round allowing one unit to do triple damage, and
wala, a healthy unit of strength over 3X will Never (mathematically) lose to a healthy unit of strength X, there is still randomness and the Actual combat value of units A+B are their strengths (adjusted for hp)

Yes, I like this way to calculate combat results. It means that units that are a few ages more advanced will never (really mathematically never and not statistically never) lose to units that are far less advanced. Also this creates a so called soft cap, in that units twice as strong will rarely lose and units 2.5 times as strong will very rarely lose and units 3 times as strong will never lose. And still it is possible to beat stronger units by using lots of weaker units to first weaken the more advanced units and subsequently kill them.
The number of hit points of units can allow the model to be perfected to allow greater or smaller chances for the stronger to win over the weaker unit (making combat more or less predictable).

Great combat model, a pity this isn't used in Civ4, but still good thinking. Constant + variable damage (both based on unit strengths) is the way to go for civ5 (or a combat mod for civ4???).

 

[Scythe89]

I think it would be more ridiculous if a low hp helcopter could single handily destroy a civilization that may have 10-20+ cities, with dozens of obsolete units.

 

[Pragmatic]

I think it would be more ridiculous if a low hp helcopter could single handily destroy a civilization that may have 10-20+ cities, with dozens of obsolete units.

It couldn't. The helicopter could only destroy one unit per turn, right? (Or is multi-attacks in Civ 4?) Meanwhile, the low-tech civilization would have produced two units to replace every lost unit.

Eventually, they'd leave the civilization would be defenseless, but I don't think helicopters could capture cities--nor do I think it could destroy improvements.

So the helicopter would cruise around, destroying units, meanwhile the civilization would research further and further up the tech tree. Eventually, they'd be able to destroy the helicopter.

Now, if the helicopter was part of three or four gunships, with some artillery and some modern armor, that might be possible...