Civ-Specific Traits

[Civ3Newbie]

Here is what I think the civ-specific traits should be:

Americans: Industrious, commercial

Indians: Religious, agricultural

Romans: Industrious, Expansionist

Persia: Industrious, Religious

Greeks: Commercial, Seafaring

Iroquois: Religious, expansionistic

Babylonians: Religious, scientific

Chinese: Industrious, Militaristic

French: Expansionist, Scientific

Germans: Industrious, Scientific

English: Seafaring, Expansionist

Egyptians: Commercial, Religious

Zulu: Militaristic, expansionistic

Japanese: Religious, Militaristic

Russian: Militaristic, expansionist

Aztecs: Militaristic, Religious

Ottomans: Commercial, Scientific

Arabs: Commercial, Religious

Carthaginians: Commercial, Seafaring

Vikings: Seafaring, Militaristic

Koreans: Seafearing, Agricultural

Celts: Religious, Militaristic

Spainish: Expansionist, Seafaring

Mongols: Expansionist, Militaristic

Hittites: Militaristic, Commercial

Incans: Agricultural, Expansionist

Sumerians: Agricultural, Religious

Portuguese: Seafaring, Commercial

Mayans: Religious, Scientific

Dutch: Seafaring, Agricultural

 

[the_corvos]

Three civs are militaristic and religious? Other than that, I agree with most of them.

 

[HungryMouse]

hmmmm... quite difficult to comment on this. there are arguably as many opinions on this issue as many people there are. but anyways:

1. for Dutch Commercial trait is better than agricultural. Netherlands have always been a great mercandising power.

2. why French are Expancionists? Agricultural would be better IMHO. French wines, cheese etc.

3. I am bad with ancient history, and dunno maybe Egyptians were good at commerce, but i would give them Industrious trait... Pyramids and such things...

4. for the Arabs I would leave their "original" traits Rel + Exp. Why Commercial? Because of Oil?

But in general assigning traits to civs is very subjective thing, because a certain civilisation can have very different "traits" in different times. Take Japan for example... Is it Militaristic now and more Religious than let's say Spanish? But once again, i think there cannot be general agreement on the traits, which means that the more interesting is the discussion on the issue.

 

[citizen001]

I think every civ should have every trait just to different degrees. For example:

America: 34% Militaristic, 45% Industrious, 10% Religious,....

Etc, etc.

 

[HungryMouse]

I think every civ should have every trait just to different degrees. For example:

America: 34% Militaristic, 45% Industrious, 10% Religious,....

Etc, etc.

on base of what are u going to calculate the relative weight of each trait? In your example does this mean, that 34% of americans are at army service, 45% work at factories and 10% go to church every Sunday? Man, it's nice but i think by the time corresponding statistics are collected we all will live on Mars...

 

[Tomoyo]

Egyptians should have agricultural and either religious or industrious.

France should definately be agricultural, not commercial. (Not that industrious fits, either) The French historically have lived off of their land.

And how can England not be Commerical?

 

[Arachnaphobia]

I reckon the Greeks should be Scientific. I mean they were pretty big on science back in the day, think of all the Greek philosophers.

 

[the_corvos]

It depends on when you look at. Today, I'd say Greece is definitely commercial and seafaring, but back in the day, Greece harbored some of the greatest scientific minds of the time.

 

[Rambuchan]

This thread could go on for a very long time.

 

[Rambuchan]

To expand: There are some real problems with trying to fully represent each Civs' historical abilities. The passage of time being one problem and Japan being a good example. There are others.

I thought, well perhaps give each Civ 3 traits to more fully represent them (I thought the idea of having a percentage balance was a great one but perhaps needs thinking on how to apply it). And in choosing 3 traits for each civ I found a huge problem with trying to more accurately represent all the civs, whether in general or by giving them 3 traits each. And that problem is, there is huge disparity in the quality of the civs. Many merit at least 3 different traits (eg. England - Seafaring, Commercial and Expansionist all clearly apply, see below for more) and some Civs simply couldn't scratch up a third (eg. Zulus - Expansionist, Militaristic and ...?, Iroqious - religious, expansionist and ....?) So wouldn't an attempt at getting more accurate also lead to major imbalances? I have no idea about game coding and balancing games but you see which hole I'm digging at. That's the problem but what solutions?

Anyway, some other thoughts:

There seem to be traits which fall between the lines. China for example have historically been a 'Dogmatic' civilisation, as have Japan. Be it Communism, Capitalism, a religious ideology, nationalistic fervour or a combination, China has proved itself to be 'determined and dogmatic' with whichever ideology it embraces. Would adding a trait like this help? France, Russia, America, England, the Persians, the Romans and others all seem to fall into the same camp whereas others clearly don't. This is quite close to being industrious though I feel, but it does have a different flava.

Another grey area trait would be 'Cultural' perhaps? I'm thinking of America here in particular - huge cultural imperialists but plainly not religious. [Hehe - a rock'n'roll domination victory anyone?] France are like this also. They have a huge cultural legacy and identity but it isn't solely religious. Russia and England (and perhaps the Zulus as a representative of sub-Saharan Africa) are other cultured bunches in the same vein.

Another mid-way or new trait which someone once suggested was 'Diplomatic'. Which is a brilliant idea. The poster of that one had laid out quite logically and reasonably how to apply it also.

Some 3 trait combos with and without the new suggestions:

English: Diplomatic, Seafaring, Commercial or Seafaring, Expansionist & Commercial
India: Commercial, Agricultural, Religious
China: Industrious, Militaristic, Dogmatic
Vikings: Seafaring, Militaristic, Expansionist
Spanish: Expansionist, Seafaring, Religious
Dutch: Seafaring, Commercial, Cultural
Arabs: Commercial, Religious, Expansionist/Militaristic
Egyptians: Religious, Industrious, Dogmatic
Ottomans: Scientific, Religious, Cultural
Aztecs: Militaristic, Cultural, Religious or Militaristic, Religious, Dogmatic
And the Incas for whom any of these would apply: Cultural, Industrious, Agricultural, Diplomatic, Scientific (super-talented astronomers), Expansionist.

I accept some of these suggestions may be grossly inaccurate but this is simply some thinking out loud to encourage others. I'd love to see more changes made to traits, the new ones with Conquests were brilliant.

 

[Zorn]

I am mostly confident with the traits as they are.
The only thing that I really find misfitting are the aztecs. It seems so wromg to me that they had lost their religious trait. I mean, they sacrificed thousands of people to please their gods, their whole society was build purely around fighting and sacrificing. They were like the greatest zealots and fanatics in history ever.
Japan on the other hand - I don`t know japanese culture very well, I don`t even know what religion they have (wich might indicate that it isn`t very influential). From what I know, japan seems to revolve more around morals and ethics than a real religion. But I can be proven wrong here. However, aztecs clearly should have kept their rel/mil combi.

As for the suggestions in this thread:
Romans not militaristic? Granted, romans had many, many virtues beyond martial prowess. But still rome is one of the most outstanding examples of military conquest. Mil trait is a must for them.

 

[Tomoyo]

The Japanese could have very much gotten agricultural (it's not easy farming mountainous land) or seafaring... but not that much Seafaring.

The original Japanese religion is Shinto (the way of the gods) and is a nature religion like Taoism or some Pagan religions. Buddhism arrived at Japan some time later and became a main religion too.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

(eg. Zulus - Expansionist, Militaristic and ...?

Didn't the Zulu raise cattle?(Agricultural)

The cattle-fold's central position within the homestead evinced that animal's crucial role in society. Cattle were of ritual significance, for only through their sacrifice could the ancestors be propitiated - they were being offered what the faithful believed still belonged to them. The dowry system produced an exponential curve of wealth - more cattle meant more wives...who produced more children who, in turn, provided more domestic labour and productivity plus the added bonus of more cattle when the girls were married off. Cattle were also the source of meat and milk, with their hides used for clothing and battle-shields. All rituals and ceremonies were conducted within the cattle-fold and deep, camouflaged grain pits for winter storage were dug within its perimeter.

 

[Tomoyo]

Cattle raising doesn't exactly qualify as agriculture.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Then show me something that justifiies a different trait

 

[Rambuchan]

That's my point - some civs simply couldn't justify another trait. That's why I am saying making the traits more historically accurate would highlight inequalities between the civs.

 

[henry k c]

French aer't really expansionist, only era was with napoleon. But the industrious should definatly be changed.lol

 

[mastertyguy]

America is more militaristic, commercial or religious now than industrious (Think about bush father and son and 2004 presidentials. but the brest seems fairly accurate

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Please move this to Civ 4-Ideas and Suggestions. It fits better there.

 

[Civ3Newbie]

To expand: There are some real problems with trying to fully represent each Civs' historical abilities. The passage of time being one problem and Japan being a good example. There are others.

I thought, well perhaps give each Civ 3 traits to more fully represent them (I thought the idea of having a percentage balance was a great one but perhaps needs thinking on how to apply it). And in choosing 3 traits for each civ I found a huge problem with trying to more accurately represent all the civs, whether in general or by giving them 3 traits each. And that problem is, there is huge disparity in the quality of the civs. Many merit at least 3 different traits (eg. England - Seafaring, Commercial and Expansionist all clearly apply, see below for more) and some Civs simply couldn't scratch up a third (eg. Zulus - Expansionist, Militaristic and ...?, Iroqious - religious, expansionist and ....?) So wouldn't an attempt at getting more accurate also lead to major imbalances? I have no idea about game coding and balancing games but you see which hole I'm digging at. That's the problem but what solutions?

Anyway, some other thoughts:

There seem to be traits which fall between the lines. China for example have historically been a 'Dogmatic' civilisation, as have Japan. Be it Communism, Capitalism, a religious ideology, nationalistic fervour or a combination, China has proved itself to be 'determined and dogmatic' with whichever ideology it embraces. Would adding a trait like this help? France, Russia, America, England, the Persians, the Romans and others all seem to fall into the same camp whereas others clearly don't. This is quite close to being industrious though I feel, but it does have a different flava.

Another grey area trait would be 'Cultural' perhaps? I'm thinking of America here in particular - huge cultural imperialists but plainly not religious. [Hehe - a rock'n'roll domination victory anyone?] France are like this also. They have a huge cultural legacy and identity but it isn't solely religious. Russia and England (and perhaps the Zulus as a representative of sub-Saharan Africa) are other cultured bunches in the same vein.

Another mid-way or new trait which someone once suggested was 'Diplomatic'. Which is a brilliant idea. The poster of that one had laid out quite logically and reasonably how to apply it also.

Some 3 trait combos with and without the new suggestions:

English: Diplomatic, Seafaring, Commercial or Seafaring, Expansionist & Commercial
India: Commercial, Agricultural, Religious
China: Industrious, Militaristic, Dogmatic
Vikings: Seafaring, Militaristic, Expansionist
Spanish: Expansionist, Seafaring, Religious
Dutch: Seafaring, Commercial, Cultural
Arabs: Commercial, Religious, Expansionist/Militaristic
Egyptians: Religious, Industrious, Dogmatic
Ottomans: Scientific, Religious, Cultural
Aztecs: Militaristic, Cultural, Religious or Militaristic, Religious, Dogmatic
And the Incas for whom any of these would apply: Cultural, Industrious, Agricultural, Diplomatic, Scientific (super-talented astronomers), Expansionist.

I accept some of these suggestions may be grossly inaccurate but this is simply some thinking out loud to encourage others. I'd love to see more changes made to traits, the new ones with Conquests were brilliant.

Interesting. The "dogmatic" could probably be called "patriotic" or "nationalist", and cultural can become artistic. Patrotic can have benefits like more resistors when an enemy captures your city, less WW, more effective propoganda or whatever, and Artistic could probably give you more cultural points for libaries, universities, wonders, etc. and increase happiness. Here are my proposals for having 3 civ-specific traits:

Americans: Industrious, commercial, Patriotic
Indians: Religious, agricultural, commercial
Romans: Industrious, Expansionist, Militaristic
Persia: Industrious, Religious, Scientific
Greeks: Artistic, Seafaring, Scientific
Iroquois: Religious, expansionistic, militaristic
Babylonians: Religious, scientific, artistic
Chinese: Industrious, Militaristic, Patriotic
French: Agricultural, Scientific, Commercial
Germans: Industrious, Scientific, Militaristic
English: Seafaring, Expansionist, Commercial
Egyptians: Commercial, Religious, Industrious
Zulu: Militaristic, expansionistic, agricultural
Japanese: Religious, Militaristic, Patriotic
Russian: Militaristic, expansionist, scientific
Aztecs: Militaristic, Religious, expansionist
Ottomans: Commercial, Scientific, artistic
Arabs: Commercial, Religious, Militaristic
Carthaginians: Commercial, Seafaring, Industrious
Vikings: Seafaring, Militaristic, Expansionist
Koreans: Seafearing, Agricultural, artistic
Celts: Religious, Militaristic, Seafaring(?)
Spainish: Expansionist, Seafaring, Commercial
Mongols: Expansionist, Militaristic, Patriotic
Hittites: Militaristic, Commercial, Expansionist
Incans: Agricultural, Expansionist, Industrious(?)
Sumerians: Agricultural, Religious, artistic
Portuguese: Seafaring, Commercial, Artistic(?)
Mayans: Religious, Scientific, Militaristic
Dutch: Seafaring, Agricultural, Commercial