Trait Specific Improvement Ideas?

[SayHayKid]

In an effort to add variety to each play through, and to give each Civ a little more personality, I am adopting concepts used by the many great mods that have come before, such as:

• Unique GWs for each Civ
• Unique SWs for some Civs
• Unique improvements and SWs for different governments
• Unique improvements and Wonders for different religions

I have most of those all worked out. Then yesterday I thought about unique improvements and wonders for traits. Instead of giving each Civ a starting tech on the tech tree, they will start with four non-era specific and non-traceable techs: civ (1), religion (1), and traits (2). I have ideas for most, but could use some ideas for a couple holes.

IMPROVEMENTS
As you can see I am not sure what to do about Expansionist. Maybe an additional improvement to reduce corruption? Plus, giving them access to an improved or cheaper "settler"?

• Agricultural - Latifundium (allows city size 2 earlier than other Civs) *I thought about giving them the Granary and having a secondary improvement for other Civs that had same effects as Granary, but comes later. That seemed overpowered though.
• Commercial - Bazaar (+50% tax, more lux happiness) *Lux happiness removed from Marketplace. Comes with later improvement for all Civs
• Expansionist - ???
• Industrious - Smithy (+25% production)
• Militaristic - Barracks and Stables (requires iron in radius/horses in radius) *I agree with @Civinator did by removing barracks for all Civs in CCM. Some Civ SWs and governments allow or give barracks.
• Scientific - Academy (+50% science)
• Seafaring - Cothon (increased water trade; veteran sea) *Veteran sea units in era 2 for other Civs.

SMALL WONDERS

• Agricultural - ???
• Commercial - Grand Bazaar (+50% tax, +1 trade)
• Expansionist - ???
• Industrious - Ironworks (+100% production)
• Militaristic - Heroic Epic (reduce war weariness and/or larger or stronger Armies) *Armies are replaced by Generals in my mod (1 unit, +HP, +movement)
• Scientific - The Great Library (2 free advances)
• Seafaring - The Great Lighthouse (+1 sea move, safe at sea, increased water trade)

 

[Predator145]

Expansionist can get SWs auto producing scouts and settlers (that cost no pop). Perfume them so that they're built on turn 1. Have them obsolete at a certain inevitable tech if you don't want it to go on for too long. For Improvement they can have one that enables the construction of a cheaper settler (in shield, not pop). Make the granary another requirement to construct that settler as well.

Seafaring like Exp is tough because these traits are so map dependent. The AI is terrible at Sea because it has terrible city placement. Many cities are placed 1 tile from the coast. It's painful to even look at. I give them a unique SW needing a Palace that serves as a free/cheap Colossus. Seafaring empires usually have very rich coastal capitals. Carthage, Constantinople, London, Amsterdam, Lisbon comes to mind. Spain is an odd one. I've changed their capital to Barcelona. Madrid is smack in the inland center in real life. With the extra commerce, the AI is quite a tech leader with this trait. Since I've axed the whole curragh/galley suicide stuff the human player only plays this trait better by having better city placement and thus a bit more commerce. Fair enough since the human player plays every trait better be it early aggression with cheap barracks or better hut popping with scouts.

Religious need a big buff since all civs in my mod now get 2 turn anarchy. They get a SW giving 1 happy face to all cities.


Agricultural is tough since the trait in stock game is already overpowered. Flintlock's patch gives you the option to nerf its early game. An industrial age SW (needing Industrialization tech and maybe 5 hospitals) could have the effect of Longevity. Any earlier and it would be ridiculously busted. As for Longevity, have it do something else happiness related. Or you could go the "go green" route and have an SW providing every city with an improvement that reduces building pollution. This would avoid making the strongest trait even stronger.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

Instead of giving each Civ a starting tech on the tech tree, they will start with four non-era specific and non-traceable techs: civ (1), religion (1), and traits (2).

Looks interesting, SHK. I have been using this exact method and I think it works out well. I think that Predator's idea of a SW for Expanionist that produces settlers would be a very strong and appropriate bonus for them. What about religious civs?

 

[SayHayKid]

Expansionist can get SWs auto producing scouts and settlers (that cost no pop). Perfume them so that they're built on turn 1. Have them obsolete at a certain inevitable tech if you don't want it to go on for too long. For Improvement they can have one that enables the construction of a cheaper settler (in shield, not pop). Make the granary another requirement to construct that settler as well.

Seafaring like Exp is tough because these traits are so map dependent. The AI is terrible at Sea because it has terrible city placement. Many cities are placed 1 tile from the coast. It's painful to even look at. I give them a unique SW needing a Palace that serves as a free/cheap Colossus. Seafaring empires usually have very rich coastal capitals. Carthage, Constantinople, London, Amsterdam, Lisbon comes to mind. Spain is an odd one. I've changed their capital to Barcelona. Madrid is smack in the inland center in real life. With the extra commerce, the AI is quite a tech leader with this trait. Since I've axed the whole curragh/galley suicide stuff the human player only plays this trait better by having better city placement and thus a bit more commerce. Fair enough since the human player plays every trait better be it early aggression with cheap barracks or better hut popping with scouts.

Religious need a big buff since all civs in my mod now get 2 turn anarchy. They get a SW giving 1 happy face to all cities.


Agricultural is tough since the trait in stock game is already overpowered. Flintlock's patch gives you the option to nerf its early game. An industrial age SW (needing Industrialization tech and maybe 5 hospitals) could have the effect of Longevity. Any earlier and it would be ridiculously busted. As for Longevity, have it do something else happiness related. Or you could go the "go green" route and have an SW providing every city with an improvement that reduces building pollution. This would avoid making the strongest trait even stronger.

As I was trying to figure out how to "time" the availability of SWs, I bumped against needing two techs (the non-tradeable trait tech AND the era tech, such as Industrialization), but there is only on slot. So, I might have to have a super cheap trait specific building like an Explorer's Guild, Merchant's Guild, etc. Then I could time the SW by era tech and have the "guild" building as a pre-req ensuring only the civs with that trait can build.

Solid idea on swapping Madrid and Barcelona. Makes perfect sense.

I replaced Longevity with Commercial Farm under Green Revolution tech. Currently it is open to every Civ. I was thinking about having that as the SW for AG. It is way in the future, but that is ok since they get such a big boost early on.

Looks interesting, SHK. I have been using this exact method and I think it works out well. I think that Predator's idea of a SW for Expanionist that produces settlers would be a very strong and appropriate bonus for them. What about religious civs?

@AnthonyBoscia I was planning on a SW that producers settlers. Just not sure what to call it and what graphic to use. I have found that to be one of the most challenging aspects of modding. I'll come up with an idea and then spend an hour trying to find an appropriate building graphic.

I was trying to be consistent so that each trait has an improvement and a SW (maybe even a GW). Having an improvement auto-produce a unit, like a settler, is too powerful. So, I was trying to think about what other limited editor checkboxes are available that would help with expansion. The only thing I could think of was lower corruption which should allow cities to be more productive and thus expand faster.

As far as religious Civs, I gave all Civs the regions trait for 2 turn anarchy. Then removed religious flags from improvements like temples. Then I borrowed heavily from how CCM implemented religion. So, essentially all Civs have a religion with unique improvements and wonders via their religion.

 

[SayHayKid]

Another idea I am trying work through is (assuming I have enough building slots) similar to something I really liked in the MEM mod. When you capture the capital cities of other Civs they become Vassal states and you become Emperor, Duke, etc.. It works really well in that scenario since it is limited to a specific era. I am trying to figure out how to implement on a 4 Era epic game. It doesn't make as much sense in the modern era.

The idea is that when you capture their capital and flag, you can then can build a Small Wonder that the original Civ can't build (it is obsoleted by their non-traceable Civ tech). I was thinking of making them consulates or foreign embassies. Not sure on benefits. And not sure if it should be open to every Civ or maybe a perk of a certain government like Imperialism. But that would be a really big perk for a single government.

I don't know I really like the concept, just scratching my head on to implement.

 

[Theov]

Another idea I am trying work through is (assuming I have enough building slots) similar to something I really liked in the MEM mod. When you capture the capital cities of other Civs they become Vassal states and you become Emperor, Duke, etc.. It works really well in that scenario since it is limited to a specific era. I am trying to figure out how to implement on a 4 Era epic game. It doesn't make as much sense in the modern era.

The idea is that when you capture their capital and flag, you can then can build a Small Wonder that the original Civ can't build (it is obsoleted by their non-traceable Civ tech). I was thinking of making them consulates or foreign embassies. Not sure on benefits. And not sure if it should be open to every Civ or maybe a perk of a certain government like Imperialism. But that would be a really big perk for a single government.

I don't know I really like the concept, just scratching my head on to implement.

In my mod I added the following to add spice and to make every civ different from the other or at least every culture group different from the other.

Added Culture Group Unique Buildings (at the start of the game, all cost 80 shields, cost 1 maint and add 2 culture):
European: City Hall, lowers corruption and adds 50% tax. Obsolete with Electronics.
Mediterranean: Public Baths, adds 50% Tax, +1 Obsolete with Sanitation.
Mid Eastern: War Council, reduces War Weariness, +1 and is a Stealth Barrier. Doesn't become obsolete.
Asian: Temple Grounds, adds 50% science, +1 and adds 4 culture instead of 2. Obsolete with the Scientific Method.
American: Sacrificial Altar, doubles Ritual Sacrifices, reduces corruption. Obsolete with Medicine.

Added Culture Group Unique SW:
American: Temple of the Sun (gives every city a Sacrificial Altar) Obsolete with Medicine.


Added Culture Group Unique Units (they replace another unit, except for the Mid Eastern Camel Rider)
All can enslave (results in a slave):
American: Crocodile Warrior (2/1/1, defensive bombard, +1HP, replaces the Archer).
Asian: Marauder (3/3/1, replaces the Swordsman).
European: Mounted Crossbow (3/1/2, replaces Horseman)
Mediterranean: Elephant Archers (2/2/2, replaces Elephant Rider)
Mid Eastern: Camel Archers. (2/2/2, requires incense, moves faster in desert and floodplains).
Mediterranean and Mid Eastern: the Camel Cavalry: 5/2/2 (75 shields. Gunpowder)


Added Government Specific Small Wonders, all 200 shields:
1: Despotism: Hillfort double barbarian bonus and 100% defense bonus for the city.
2: Republic: Circus Maximus, +2 in city, +1 in every city on continent.
3: Monarchy: Tax office, +5% added to the Treasury - cumulative with Wall Street, +50% tax in city
4: Feudalism: Crusading Order. Builds a Footknight every 5 turns and lowers WW.
5: Fascism: Party Rallies - adds a palace, produces a smoke mortar every 5 turns.
6: Communism: Secret Police HQ
7: Democracy: National Health Care - +2 in all cities.
8: Libertarianism: Statue of Liberty - Modern Colossus, allows to grow beyond 12, reduces WW.
9: Theocracy: Holy City - treasury earns 5%, +1 in every city.

 

[Ozymandias]

One "trick" you might consider is giving every Civ the Religious Trait, and then unchecking the Religious Trait Box in every Improvement, etc. The game is hard-coded to give this Trait a max of 2 turns of "insanity" between switching Gov types.

If you'd still like a "Religious" Trait, then add a new one, and call it something along the lines of "Devout," and then check that Trait's Box wherever you deem fit.

 

[Ozymandias]

Another quickie: I personally remove the -1 Food Penalty from Despotism, as the AI is clueless about this, giving the Player yet another unfair advantage.

 

[Predator145]

Another quickie: I personally remove the -1 Food Penalty from Despotism, as the AI is clueless about this, giving the Player yet another unfair advantage.

You mean remove despot penalty all together? Hmm. The AI sure is clueless about worker management. It will just irrigate green early. But it will also make getting out of despot far less of a priority. The worst thing about despot is the penalty preventing you from growing. Corruption isn't an issue early on and the unit support is much preferred.

Also, give the AI the ability to irrigate without water source early (I give them that with Pottery). The AI will otherwise mine brown in dry places and keep it for the rest of the game.

 

[SayHayKid]

Another quickie: I personally remove the -1 Food Penalty from Despotism, as the AI is clueless about this, giving the Player yet another unfair advantage.

Hmm. That is indeed a big change. Wouldn't it nerf the agriculture trait? Which isn't a bad thing. It is pretty darn powerful. Would it be too overpowered if I removed the despotism penalty, but gave the Agriculture non-era tech the ability to irrigate without water as compensation? The other civs wouldn't get the ability until the start of the second era with Engineering.

 

[Ozymandias]

You mean remove despot penalty all together? Hmm. The AI sure is clueless about worker management.

Exactly my point: the AI will irrigate Plains while under Despotism.

But it will also make getting out of despot far less of a priority. The worst thing about despot is the penalty preventing you from growing. Corruption isn't an issue early on and the unit support is much preferred.

As a rule of thumb, the AI's choices in Governments will always be dominated by Corruption Value, with Minimal > Nuisance > Problematic > Rampant > Catastrophic. (I'm uncertain about how precisely how the AI will choose Communal.) Given a choice between two Governments with the same Corruption Values, this thread is particularly illuminating.

Also, give the AI the ability to irrigate without water source early (I give them that with Pottery). The AI will otherwise mine brown in dry places and keep it for the rest of the game.

Isn't this solved by simply removing the Food Penalty?

 

[Predator145]

Removing the food penalty in despot won't solve the issue of the AI mining plains and not irrigating them later.

Leaving despot is more of a priority for the human player, forcing him/her to tech into an expensive optional tech. Without the penalty, I see no problem staying in despot into medieval age. The unit support is absolutely worth it. The AI however will tech into a new gov (and multiple new govs to their detriment) pretty quickly. That's why I'm still on the fence. Despotism without the food penalty is actually preferable to Monarchy or Republic in early game.

 

[Ozymandias]

Then, an easy fix: the reasoning behind the "All Units Free" bit for Despotism (gameplay?) is questionable; so, instead, set it to whatever # you see fit ( < = Monarchy.)

 

[Predator145]

Then, an easy fix: the reasoning behind the "All Units Free" bit for Despotism (gameplay?) is questionable; so, instead, set it to whatever # you see fit ( < = Monarchy.)

I'll test that when I have time. Can the faster growth balance out the extra unit support cost?

 

[Ozymandias]

TBD. I've not tested in sufficiently. When Era 1 for Terra Fantasia is done to my satisfaction, I'll let everyone know.

In TF, I'm also trying to limit early City growth in favor of expansion: I'm playing with capping Towns at 4 Pop, and using CCM's method of auto-producing Workers.

 

[tjs282]

Removing the food penalty in despot won't solve the issue of the AI mining plains and not irrigating them later.

My solution to this problem was to simply make Plains give 2f+1s, but only allow Workers to add Roads and Forests (and I'm still deciding whether or not I like that latter option).

So in the early game/ under Despotism, an all-Plains start (especially if Wheat, Cattle, Wines or — after chopping Forest — Game are associated with them) is now relatively stronger than an all-Grassland start (because Grassland needs more Worker-turns to get the same yields). But in the mid- to late-game they diminish in usefulness because — unlike Grassland — their base-yields can't be boosted further by switching governments, or building Rails.

I've made a few other terrain-tweaks, partly to assist the AI, partly to nerf the Agricultural trait, and partly for aesthetics
— Deserts can only be mined
— Hills (and Jungles) can be irrigated
— Floodplains give +1s, but move-cost=2 (i.e. they take twice as many Worker-turns to improve as a Grassland)
— Tundra won't support Town-settlement, except in existing Forests — but Forests can't be planted in Tundra, either (so once they're chopped, they're gone forever)
— (Just for fun, I've also associated Gems with Volcanoes, and allowed roads to be built over them...)

Without the penalty, I see no problem staying in despot into medieval age. The unit support is absolutely worth it.

I have Despotism reduce its unit-support as towns get bigger — so instead of 4 / 4 / 4, I've made it 4 / 2 / 1 (a bit like Feudalism). The idea is to make it an "early-game" government only.

And to make the early transition to Monarchy/ Republic a little less painful, I gave Anarchy 2 military police and "Rampant" corruption like Despotism, so towns can keep building/ growing as the government reorganises itself (but Anarchy keeps the slower Workers, the Despot penalty, and the "Transitional" type — and any revolution now also causes "Forced resettlement" to keep the population-losses that often happen via starvation during longer default-setting Anarchy periods).

Then, an easy fix: the reasoning behind the "All Units Free" bit for Despotism (gameplay?) is questionable; so, instead, set it to whatever # you see fit ( < = Monarchy.)

But... Despotism doesn't make all units free...?

One other idea I had, though, was to make the very early resourceless offensive units (Scouts, Warriors, Archers, and UU-equivalents; maybe also bombard-units and LBMs) cost zero-maintenance, i.e. basically, if they can go out and 'live off the land', they don't need paying — but if they need Iron, or Horses, and/or usually 'live' in a town, they do.

 

[Ozymandias]

In truth, Despotism does not make all units free.

Open the Editor, and look at the Governments Page, then look, lower-left-ish. First, Despotism:

You'll see that it's 4 Units Free for Towns; etc. I have an Arrow pointed at "All Units Free," on the Despotism Page, for reference, as you'll plainly see that button selected in Anarchy:

Happy Modding,
z

 

[Alekseyev_]

What about religious civs?

One possible SW could be one that does what the oracle (one of the worst wonders in vanilla Civ3) does: Double the happiness from temples (or what SayHayKid replaced them with), making them more valuable to build. You could also have it place a 1-culture-generating, unbuildable building in every city, to have religious civs slowly grow their culture even in new cities without improvements.

I recently used this feature to have a wonder that causes different effects when also containing a government: A "Das Kapital" wonder that creates a worker every X turns and places a small improvement (communist ideals) in every city. This improvement (unlike the wonder) however requires a communism government, and is therefore invisible in cities with different governments, also not causing any effect on the city. If the civ also follows communism, it will gain +1 content and +1 culture in every city. Perhaps this functionality can inspire you guys too.

I don't know I really like the concept, just scratching my head on to implement.

I like MEM, but I always feel like this concept was done in a suboptimal way. By linking it to governments, that caused many such "vassals" to remain unavailable. And in the end, just for corruption/waste reasons, empire was the best government anyway.

One "trick" you might consider is giving every Civ the Religious Trait, and then unchecking the Religious Trait Box in every Improvement, etc. The game is hard-coded to give this Trait a max of 2 turns of "insanity" between switching Gov types.

He wrote about having done that already at the very start.

 

[Ozymandias]

One possible SW could be one that does what the oracle (one of the worst wonders in vanilla Civ3) does: Double the happiness from temples (or what SayHayKid replaced them with), making them more valuable to build. You could also have it place a 1-culture-generating, unbuildable building in every city, to have religious civs slowly grow their culture even in new cities without improvements.

You might want to have a look at my "An Intro To & An Encyclopedia Of Modding" I began with the old "Apolyton University Mod: C3C Version." That latter thread is by alexman, who was one of the Firaxis devs.

Recognizing the problems with the Oracle, his recommendation was the simple & straightforward:

"This Wonder is one of the weakest in the game, yet it is usually one of the AI’s top priorities." Fix: Reduced cost to 200 shields

-Oz

 

[timerover51]

You might want to have a look at my "An Intro To & An Encyclopedia Of Modding" I began with the old "Apolyton University Mod: C3C Version." That latter thread is by alexman, who was one of the Firaxis devs.

Recognizing the problems with the Oracle, his recommendation was the simple & straightforward:

"This Wonder is one of the weakest in the game, yet it is usually one of the AI’s top priorities." Fix: Reduced cost to 200 shields

-Oz

The AI definitely loves to build that one as soon as possible. I am tempted to make it a Small Wonder and boost the cost, just to keep it busy for a while. Just think, all of the AI busy building that rather than doing something productive.