Civ V and paid downloadable content - how would you feel about it?

[Arkangelus]

Its interesting to note how its worked out for the Sims, I think.

A lot of people feel like avid collectors, that they have to buy all the packs to get the complete experience. I know for The Sims 2 there were all sorts of "stuff packs" that offered just about nothing of genuine value, but that sold very well. However, now they've switched to individual sets of DLC, theres just no way that anyone could buy them all. To purchase every clothes and furniature set would cost hundreds, bordering on thousands of dollars, so previous completists have been forced to reevaluate how much they buy, and ultimately spend far less.

It'd be the same here - if they released 10 sets of DLC civilizations, theres almost no way that I'd consider buying any of them, and if the inevitable expansions are lacking new content due to this then it'd put me off them too. I'd expect those 10 to come with the new pack, so if they didnt and they were all seperate I'd probably just not get any of them.

 

[Crazy George]

I'm willing to go with the assumption that C5 will have unpresedented modability. To me, this means I will be able to make custom Units, Leaders, Civilizations, & Maps simply and easily, right out of the box. (Once again, this is my assumption).

Thus, if I want to take a standard unit and change it's characteristics, I will be able to give it extra movement, strength, or whatever. In short, I'll be able to reproduce the effects of any unique unit out there.

The question then becomes, what does one get from a Babylonian DLC that is not easily achievable and modable? The answer at first appears to be graphics... but then, maybe there will be more.

There is talk of traits (flavors, I think they call them). If the Babylonian Civ came with a unique flavor (strategy) that was integrated into the AI, then this new flavor (and not the cosmetic graphics, which I assume will be a dime a dozen) might be worth a buck or two.

As might other venues of gameplay (for lack of a better term) that would not be easily modable (due to AI integration problems, if nothing else). Things like: Religion, Espinoge, Corporations, or Magic. At $10 a shot (so much cheaper than 10£ the last I looked), any of those things might be worth the price of admission (well, maybe not corporations), especially if this meant the AI would be tweaked to take advantage of them.

And as to Multi-Player online compatibility, don't we already have that same problem with C4 (vanilla, warlords, BtS, and so on)? Since I don't play online, maybe I'm over-simplifying the problem, but I would think it'd just be a matter of agreeing in advance what mods are going to be allowed. My guess is that there will come to be certain commonly accepted combinations that prove most popular, with the plain vanilla version being one of them.

 

[Zhahz]

It really depends.

If DLC was like small, high quality, expansions, I might be into it.

I have a few games with DLC available and haven't bought any because it's never seemed worth it.

 

[deanej]

The reason why the expansion = like DLC argument doesn't hold is because once an expansion comes out, everyone moves to it. Everyone who plays civ4 has BtS. Vanilla and Warlords might as well not exist for the impact they presently have on the community.

 

[Auncien]

Companies are losing a lot of goodwill on DLC business models. Not only that but the quality of the products is diminishing as the DLC 'put it in tomorrow and charge for it' attitude is creating lazy games. The traditional expansion model is much, much more fair to the fans and it doesn't leave the bad taste behind that microtransactions create. Look at the old Civilizaton IV model or the Fallout 3 model for inspiration. The companies that outlast this fad (and it is just that, a fad for people in the business world to try and make their careers on the quick revenue) are going to be the ones that build the best games with the strongest brands (like Civilization used to be) and the best sentiment (real not created by some PR machine) from the players. Gamers are getting more sophisticated, not less and they see exactly what is going on. The business model is getting more anti-consumer and more cynical than ever before. As usual, making a solid product and treating your customers for that product fairly are the best way to run a business. Anything else is just passing time until your business eventually goes under.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is when you're selling something that exists entirely inside peoples' minds and is so directly linked to their emotions and thoughts (like oh I don't know, video games) you really have to factor in those emotions into your business model and not cross any traditional boundaries that will anger people. It's not like selling a widget. People either buy and use the widget or they don't. Games exist inside people's minds and hearts and if you go fooling around with that too much with a business model that feels inappropriate to the person its going to sour the experience to the point that they won't pay you to have that experience or another one in the future. DLC, DRM and all the other dirty three letter words emerging in the industry are doing just that. They're bargaining away the future for an immediate edge in the industry.

 

[Shurdus]

Companies are losing a lot of goodwill on DLC business models. Not only that but the quality of the products is diminishing as the DLC 'put it in tomorrow and charge for it' attitude is creating lazy games. The traditional expansion model is much, much more fair to the fans and it doesn't leave the bad taste behind that microtransactions create. Look at the old Civilizaton IV model or the Fallout 3 model for inspiration. The companies that outlast this fad (and it is just that, a fad for people in the business world to try and make their careers on the quick revenue) are going to be the ones that build the best games with the strongest brands (like Civilization used to be) and the best sentiment (real not created by some PR machine) from the players. Gamers are getting more sophisticated, not less and they see exactly what is going on. The business model is getting more anti-consumer and more cynical than ever before. As usual, making a solid product and treating your customers for that product fairly are the best way to run a business. Anything else is just passing time until your business eventually goes under.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is when you're selling something that exists entirely inside peoples' minds and is so directly linked to their emotions and thoughts (like oh I don't know, video games) you really have to factor in those emotions into your business model and not cross any traditional boundaries that will anger people. It's not like selling a widget. People either buy and use the widget or they don't. Games exist inside people's minds and hearts and if you go fooling around with that too much with a business model that feels inappropriate to the person its going to sour the experience to the point that they won't pay you to have that experience or another one in the future. DLC, DRM and all the other dirty three letter words emerging in the industry are doing just that. They're bargaining away the future for an immediate edge in the industry.

Very nice emo-story, but I am not buying it. I do not believe for a second anything you say in here. Only the future can tell wether you are right or not, but for now I feel like you are reacting overemotional and overly concerned about a matter so small.

 

[Auncien]

Very nice emo-story, but I am not buying it. I do not believe for a second anything you say in here. Only the future can tell wether you are right or not, but for now I feel like you are reacting overemotional and overly concerned about a matter so small.

May I suggest reading The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell. Should you do so you will better understand the emotional connections that players build with their games. Also, not everyone who disagrees with you suffers from emotional dysfunction or is "emo."

 

[Sterf]

 

[tom2050]

Sterf, Civ 5 isn't going to be that bad... quit crying.

If they release a Civ for a few dollars, I might buy it if I'm bored. If they release a civ for $10-15; I would prefer 5 packs of lung cancer in that case.

I would prefer expansion packs over crappy little tid-bits of overpriced DLC that usually doesn't add anything large to gameplay.

 

[Kruniac]

DLC is free if you want it. I'm actually all for DLC, in fact. Oblivion's DLC, for instance, wasn't that -great-, but it did add something to a game that was "finished". The same goes for Empire: Total War, in fact. Adding just a few new units is enough to keep my interest in the game for a little while longer, and pass the days by a little easier.

Once Civ 5 is released, what we buy is what we get. No new additions save for expansions and DLC. I'd rather wait a month or two for DLC to be released than to wait 6-12 months for a full expansion. More content=More goodbits.

 

[Balerune]

Companies are losing a lot of goodwill on DLC business models. Not only that but the quality of the products is diminishing as the DLC 'put it in tomorrow and charge for it' attitude is creating lazy games. The traditional expansion model is much, much more fair to the fans and it doesn't leave the bad taste behind that microtransactions create. Look at the old Civilizaton IV model or the Fallout 3 model for inspiration. The companies that outlast this fad (and it is just that, a fad for people in the business world to try and make their careers on the quick revenue) are going to be the ones that build the best games with the strongest brands (like Civilization used to be) and the best sentiment (real not created by some PR machine) from the players. Gamers are getting more sophisticated, not less and they see exactly what is going on. The business model is getting more anti-consumer and more cynical than ever before. As usual, making a solid product and treating your customers for that product fairly are the best way to run a business. Anything else is just passing time until your business eventually goes under.

...

I think on the whole I agree with you. Some games I've played with DLC have content that isn't worth the money and you see the DLC reduced in price @ sometime in the future as no one wants to overpay for the content. Perhaps the game designers should introduce a "gold store," .... wait that kind of sounds like the idea they have? Am I playing a mmorpg?

Hey, new game, Civilization online? Sub 15usd per month?

 

[Sterf]

Sorry about that last comment, but when someone talks about gamers and their emotional connections with their videogames (seriously) I just can't take the discussion serious anymore.

More on topic: I can't stand DLC myself, never bought any since they're mostly so trivial. And agreeing with everyone in hoping they're not going to push it too far. If it's just a 'special edition' and a normal edition, that I can live with. Monthly DLC I can't see happening in any good way. But then again, when has that been announced. It's all speculation thus far.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Why is it so hard to believe gamers build emotional connections with their video games? One only has to look at WoW addicts to see how severe such an attachment can become.

Sid Meier himself is known to talk about the emotions of players when discussing video games. Even companies like Coca Cola have the majority of their marketing trying to build an emotional connection between the audience and their product. It's all very subjective but it's very important (the emotional connection between customer and product that is).

 

[The_Coyote]

Why is it so hard to believe gamers build emotional connections with their video games?

Can someone please point me to a reason why someone could play games which has absolut no connection to emotions (also excluding factors like: play fun, satisfaction [eg. finishing a hard game], ...). Atm i can only imagine spending time - but this i would see as something to avoid boredom (and boredom is an emotion, or?) - and perhaps earning money in the case of professional gamers (eg starcraft league in south korea).

Funny there was already an academic workshop with the topic Entertainment = Emotions

Even companies like Coca Cola have the majority of their marketing trying to build an emotional connection between the audience and their product.

Do you know the results of the coca cola - pepsi experiment of Chernatony & McDonald* (or similar studies)? Even the value (in this case i would say it´s taste) of goods can be affect by the the brand (and i think the emotions connected with the brand).

Unfortunally i only found secondary quotes of the experiment, not the original paper. But this study seems also to cover the topic in a slightly different manner (incl neural scans)

 

[Kyriakos]

Paid DLC is a very bad idea. It will just fragment the community. Im sure people can still pirate it, so it doesnt make money for the company either, it just dissallows you from using it in mods.

 

[Thyrwyn]

It may not have any effect on mods. If [the extra civ] didn't exist, it wouldn't be there to use, so you'd have to make your own; if [the extra civ] is there, you can't use it, so you have to make your own. The existence of a proprietary extra civ has no effect on mods.

 

[deanej]

You know, some modders do have standards, making it much less likely they could use the civ. I doubt Rhye will be using any non-Firaxis civs, for example; he won't even add leaders to civ4's RFC because they aren't good enough (even Firaxis's Hatshepsut isn't good enough). It's actually hugely unfair to modders to release the civs as paid DLC rather than expansions. With an expansion, everyone moves to it, and if you don't have it, tough. That model won't work as well with DLC.

From what we've seen of civ5 modding, it looks like they're going to easy modding rather than powerful modding. The way the one designer talks about his 12 year old making maps all the time is good evidence of this.

 

[Honorable_Pawn]

Perhaps it would be better to get back to everyone then?

Haven't finished the whole thread yet...


I think he speaks for almost all of us in regards to his fears about DLC. No need to try an stifle other people's opinions if you ask me.

 

[Honorable_Pawn]

ok finished.

I come away with the impression that almost everyone is worrried about DLC for good cause. There is one person particular who speaks for almost no one saying not to worry. And 2 others fluffing their feathers.

about spot on?

 

[Rusty Edge]

ok finished.

I come away with the impression that almost everyone is worrried about DLC for good cause. There is one person particular who speaks for almost no one saying not to worry. And 2 others fluffing their feathers.

about spot on?

Actually, I hope my fears are entirely groundless. I hope that somehow the status quo will be preserved with regard to modding, MP, LAN, PBEM, GOTM, succession games, strategy guides, Hall of Fame, and forum discussions, in spite of two versions of the game on day 0. I hope that they have overcome those obstacles with some super-secret new approach ( but simple and obvious as wheels on luggage once they mention it )which they will be announcing at E3, and that's why 2K hasn't given us any specific answers yet.