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Civ V Beta 1

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Ozbenno, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. 12agnar0k

    12agnar0k Emperor

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    Bhavv, if saving 25% on gold spending lead to 25% less time to win the game then yes, it would be an exploit, because nobody would ever spend 100% to win, if they could spend 75% instead.

    Free Speech was not intended to always be the first social policy every player took all the time, its intention is to decrease FUTURE costs, it also decreases past culture costs, but this is an oversight.

    The decrease in social policy cost is bugged, end of.
     
  2. Rutpak

    Rutpak Chieftain

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    I made a little syntetic calculation of culture needed to win as function of number of cities, and minimal number of turns needed to win. Calculations assume you have desired number of cities with buildings, populations and tile improvement at 4000bc (it's what i mean by syntetic). Maybe someone will find this useful, and maybe someone try to make will it better. More details in included Excel file.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Joel E

    Joel E Chieftain

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    Just got to weigh in with my 2 cents here.

    Selling cities to reduce cost of sp is an exploit and will probably be patched somehow.

    Tactically saving up culture untill you unlock a bonus like Christo or free speech....not an exploit....that is part of the game.
     
  4. melth

    melth Chieftain

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    On second thought I don't think going for Free Speech is that overpowered (or even good). In my current game I didn't save up all my culture points until Free Speech. I took Tradition (25), Aristocracy (45), Patronage (90), Philantrophy (160) and Asthetics for free (The Oracle). Then I saved up my culture to get Freedom (245), Constitution (345) and Free Speech (445?) quickly.

    So I spent a total of 1355 culture before I got the Free Speech bonus. If I had saved my culture I would have done Freedom (free), Constitution (25) and Free Speech (45). After that the other policies for (90+160+245+345+445 = 1285) and would have saved 25% on those, which gives me a gain of 321 culture (which is like three turns only a bit later in the game).
    Now this can be debated but I don't think this is a game-breaking amount especially considering that I had +1 food, +33% ww production, -25% city state decay and +25% city state influence for quite some turns before that. This means my city grew faster for more production and science, my world wonders were finished quicker (mainly more culture) and I probably had a city state more.. or at least had it longer (again more culture or food).

    I agree though that it might not be intended. But then I wouldn't say it's a high priority or a huge exploit.
     
  5. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    People arent taking free speeh first though, normally they take it fifth.

    Tradition > Aristocracy > Freedom > Constitution > Free Speech.

    Really, I dont think that you understand what exploits actually are, this really is not an exploit.

    The gold saving helps FAR more than saving up for free speech does, you save up 1000 gold and only spend it on a cultural city state after you already have Patronage, aesthetics and philantrophy.

    This allows you to generate far more culture than you would have if you hadnt waited to spend the gold, and is actually more significant for a culture game, and allows you to win faster. Taking Free Speech ASAP is no more of an exploit than saving up gold until it is more effective to use.

    No one here agrees that taking free speech asap is an exploit, because very simply, it isnt. I really doubt that you can win a cultural game without saving up to unlock free speech as your fifth policy because I've already tried it twice and I still couldnt get a culture win despite doing nothing other than building culture buildings and only having 5 cities.

    It is fully intended in the design of the games culture system to allow you to take policies however you like, and also to save policies for whenever you want to spend them after unlocking one further into the game.

    When you gain enough culture for a new policy, it tells you 'click here to adopt a new policy, or right click to dismiss'. You do not have to spend your accumulated culture as soon as you can, you are meant to be allowed to save it for whatever you want to spend it on, just like you can with Gold.

    Look at my above example, if you save up 1000 gold, wouldnt you rather wait until you have the top two policies in patronage before spending it on a city state to gain the most benefit possible? If saving up culture for policies is an exploit, then so is stockpiling gold to spend on city states after you have some patronage policies.
     
  6. Neuro

    Neuro Warlord

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    I fail to see how saving up any resource to spend at a time when it is more advantageous is an exploit. If that were the case...

    Holding on to a Great Scientist till you have a better tech to spend it on would be an exploit.

    Same for a Great Engineer.

    Saving up gold until you get Monarchy, Professional Army, Philanthropy, etc would be an exploit.


    Storing up culture is a tactical trade off. What you gain in savings later on, you lose in development along the way.
     
  7. 12agnar0k

    12agnar0k Emperor

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    I won the cultural victory, I spent every policy as I earnt enough culture to do so, Free Speech was not my fifth choice, let's see,
    I took
    Tradition/Aristocracy(and I believe another tradition policy)/Honour/Patronage(Finished off the patronage tree)/
    Piety/(and then two more piety policies for lower unhappiness)/ Then Freedom/Consitution/Free Speech
    So It was my 16th Policy.
    It is possible to win the cultural victory without using the exploit, (I didnt build the Cristo Redentor or Sell any Cities either.)

    If your failing to do it, its not because its impossible, its anything from impossible. I made it with ample time on the clock. I would say it was down to your skill at playing.

    .......

    As for "It is fully intended in the design of the game", well yes, it was, it would not be in the game, unless designed to be so, it had to be coded in, it was not an accident that occured with Jon Shafers Cat walking on the keyboard.
    Similiarily "Selling Cities reducing Policy Cost" was also fully intended in the design of the game.
    They are exactly the same thing, you can't claim one is exploitive, where as the other is "just game mechanics".

    However both of these result in previously unseen exploitation, an unintentional playing strategy that goes against game principles. The user is supposed to have "Freedom" (pun intended) in choosing what Social policy to take, not be forced into taking Freedom/Constitution/Freespeech first (or as close to first as possible) as with the current BUG, this means with your total culture earn't so far you can get more policies by getting these three first and then going after everything else you want.

    Intended in the original design or not, it is still exploitational as is, claims for it being "a game mechanic" or "part of the game" are just ludicrous, obviously you just don't grasp the concept of exploitation.
    Let me put it to you with a question, why are the Inca's never allowed to be played in Civ4 HOF games? The answer (although tbh I never liked the strategy personally) is because the Qeucha rush was an exploit. The Civ4 game designers didnt design Civ4 to only ever be played with Inca as it's the easiest way to win very early, NO, and similarily, Civ5 was not designed so that Culture is never spent when its earnt but saved so it will go further after reducing social policy cost.
     
  8. Joel E

    Joel E Chieftain

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    I also disagree with 12agnar0k.

    If I saved up gold untill I bult whatever wonder made buying units cheaper I don't think you would call that an exploit.

    Saving up Curtutal points is perfectly legitimate as long as you don't sell cities to reduce the cost of sps at the end.

    Possible fix?
    I think that if you sell or loose or raise a city that you should loose all the culture that that city ever contributed to your civ. If you take a city back you get the culture back. Though this may mean going into negative culture? But if an opponent is raising your cities I guess culture is the least of your problems.
     
  9. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Because you used a single city, never explored, but were fortunate enough to find 3 cultural city states nearby. I suppose you saved your gold up to use after getting Patronage though, which is the same thing as stocking up culture.

    Also, other people have 2019 beat by a longshot. The mistake I'm making is trying it with a few cities, and never getting three cultural city states like you had, which seems far more 'exploitative' than saving up policies is (not actually that it is exploitative, but also neither is saving up culture).
     
  10. 12agnar0k

    12agnar0k Emperor

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    No, I spent gold on their friendship before and after getting patronage, the only time I ever delayed sending gold to a citystate was when, 1. I had something better to spend it on, or 2. I was saving for a larger gold payment which gives you more influence. .

    Yes I know some people have beaten 2019, some of those were with exploitation, and some may of avoided the bug, perhaps they were like me and just didn't think to abuse it in the first place.

    I think you can do it with more than 1 city, I had 1 city and three cultural city states and an empire of puppets only giving me 200 culture per turn, where as others who built 2-3 cities have reported on gaining 600 culture per turn by the end.

    No making use of City States is not an exploit (or "more exploitive" by your phrasing), however it does come down to a bit of luck. I was lucky that I found 3 cultural city states out of the 6 on my continent, but there is 16!! total City States in the map, if you actually bother exploring the other continents then it should be easy enough to have 3 cultural friends if you put the effort in, barring a warmonger eating them all, but thats Civ.

    Again, Saving up culture is not the exploit, thats fine, its the Social Policy Cost reduction that has a bug in it, which makes exploitation possible.

    ................

    Joel, you are being completely illogical, you can't say "selling cities to lower the social policy cost to induce the effect" is an exploit/bug, but also say "Obtaining Free Speech or Building the Cristo Redentor to lower the social policy cost to induce the effect" is "perfectly legtimate".

    Its not, the bug exists, for all methods of reducing social policy cost, I already proposed the correct fix, "Decreasing Social Policy Cost Also Decreases Unspent Culture Relatively", that is the fix to the problem, it also won't affect anything other than the bug, it goes to the root of the problem and solves it. The Fix you suggest won't, all you do is solve one of three ways to access the bug which if not inefficient enough already, your fix also then has additional side affects of destroying culture aquired when a city is lost, which is a bit of a chop shop solution.
    Solutions to a problem are not solutions at all if they only incur more problems. This is the basics of fix'ing problems, if you don't get right to the root of the problem, more problems will just grow back. That might also relate to gardening and weeds :p.

    Also you can't compare saving gold till you buy a gold cost decreasing wonder before buying your units, to the exploit, although they sound similiar they really aren't, what we are discussing here is the exploit which allows you to buy many more social policies than you could normally with the culture you have saved through out the game, this exploit can be used to win the game a lot earlier, the same can't be said about gold. It can aid you in your game, just like saving gold till patronage for extra city state influence, but its not the same thing at all. The difference is the line between tactic's/strategy and exploitation/bug's. Some people can't see that line, its okay, I forgive you. Some people think the line exists when it does not, halucinations if you will, thats okay, it happens, I forgive you for that too. Any method of decreasing social policy cost induces the bug/exploit of being able to purchase a lot more policies. No one is different from any other, other than how they go about making the bug.
     
  11. omglazers

    omglazers Warlord

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    Anyone want to share their ideal starting locations and tech/wonder choices? i was able to finish in the 1940s although I am going to go again. Not sure what cultural cities are best settled in.

    Also, for my two cents, I think the culture victory is terribly unbalanced. The only way to win quicker than the 2000ish mark on prince even is to go OCC. Selling off cities and such shouldn't be a requirement to break that mark.
     
  12. Lexad

    Lexad oldfart

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    Micromanagement. If you expect Redentor, you do not want to cross a threshold just before - like losing 10 turns of culture. So you fire artists and don't work monuments for few turns. But for me this is an acceptable level of "exploit".
    The guy Peter from our Russian forum suggested fix for losing cities by decreasing the culture accumulated since last pick proportionally to number of cities. This would also force culture players to settle more carefully, protect their land, and don't take cities they're going to raze - very cultural behaviour, IMO, worth to be inlcuded in HoF Mod.
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    You're right, the gold analogy is not similar.....it's exactly the same.

    Rush buying with gold lets you buy stuff which allows you to win earlier.
    The gold you have saved up is not reduced and neither should the culture. It would not feel right to the player if these were treated differently.

    Even if you forget about the obvious parallel to rush buying with gold and just look at culture alone: If you reduced the accumulated culture at the same time you get the -x%, it makes the reduction feel pointless. Defeating the wonder or social policy's reason for existence. Examples given in this thread show that the small culture savings (around 300) is not that significant, and certainly not worth complicating the feature. Keep it simple.

    I don't foresee them changing this much. The feature needs to make sense to the player, and it does. If it is determined to be unbalanced, then maybe it would change to -10% or -20% instead of 25 or 33% in a future patch. (just like the Kremlin did in Civ IV)

    (P.S. I agree selling off cities feels wrong. I'd bet a patch will make it so policy costs go up with empire size, but don't go down when you shrink it.)
     
  14. Joel E

    Joel E Chieftain

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    I haven't played my game yet but I will be delving into it tonight. Should be an easy one sitting without many units to move around.

    Everyone probably has similar strategies at this point.
    I am now planning on a OCC with a marble start, decent production and enough food to run specialists.
    I will beeline Philosophy for Stonhenge then hopfully work out a slingshot to Arcitecture.
    Wonder building and Great Artists will be my primary focus. Gold will be saved for cultural CS relations, though in the early game I may be tempted to buy a worker or a cultural building as I don't want to spend too much on CS's without some of the patronage bonuses.
    Social policies are obvious with focus on Culture, OCC and CS relations. Hopfully I can keep the peice...if not will plrobably try again on a new map.
    I don't plan on hoarding culture untill free speech but if there isn't an obvious choice at the time then I will save up a bit before then.
    ...............................................
    Wastintime, My thoughts exactly.
     
  15. fizbankovi

    fizbankovi Warlord

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    OK WTF, you just BAN selling cities in the middle of my game? I spend 8 hours to play, and i sold a city i counquered back to the owner for money... so u are telling me becouse of this i cant use my game?

    Thats just sad.

    I'm seriusly angry at this change. I owned the mentioned city for exectly 1 turn. Obviusly it didtn generate any culture. Why is this not allowed?
     
  16. 12agnar0k

    12agnar0k Emperor

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    Indeed, I sold cities in my game, but they were puppets and had nothing to do with my cultural victory, ignore the "don't sell cities" rule, its not even solving the issue. I suggested some guidelines to play without exploitation for anyone that cares.
     
  17. nervous

    nervous Chieftain

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    A two continent game. I lost at least 20 turns on stupid mistake, mainly caused by flipping through turns. Won in 1963.

    I went tradition, piety, patronage, freedom, order. Got declared on by Catherine and Napoleon early when our border touched. Made most of Catherine's empire my puppet state and made a favorable peace treaty with Napoleon after his attacks failed. Catherine soon fell to Washington, who also shared my continent. I'm pretty sure Suleiman declared war on me at some point early as well.

    I allied myself with every city state I could. A lot of maritime with only a few culture and militaristic. Militaristic was great allowing me to survive my wars while building culture/science/economic buildings exclusively.

    Napoleon declared war on a city state later, and I puppeted half of his empire. His final two cities were annexed by...Rio De Janeiro...

    I Beelined globalization. Got the last required policy with Sydney Opera House. I was getting like 500 culture aturn. I maintained 3 non-puppet cities throughout the game. I felt it was a good number. I made sure each got a wonder fast with great engineers, and that Freedom policy sent my culture through the roof.

    I then basically stockpiled great people and made sure I had golden ages the whole time I was building the Utopia project. End 1963.

    Sorry no pictures.
     

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  18. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Actually, looking a the amount of culture saved, I unlocked patronage and the top two policies as soon as I had 1000 gold because you dont really save a lot.

    Then I had 29 excess :), so I took mandate to get more culture, then free religion, and then the shorter golden age bucket thing.

    I got a start with 2 golds, 2 horses, 1 marble (yay! cheaper wonders) and 1 wine (yay! monasery), 4 cultural city states and 1 maritime!

    Though I had to rush to conquer Alexanders capital at around 0 BC because he declared on one of the cultural states, he also has a few cities with more lux resources, so I'm going to also try going on a puppet state frenzy.

    I need to keep the cultural city states alive, I have just 4 horses in total, so just have 4 chariot archers and a couple of warriors to manage with :x

    I havnt gotten to chivalry yet, hopefully that uber camel archer doesnt need any resources.

    Can I give the 0 BC save to other people to try?

    I just found 6 iron too!!!

    Screenies:

    Spoiler :
     
  19. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    It's a more interesting discussion on how to get the culture win fastest. Personally, I am not sure the SOH is worth it. It requires a coastal city and the time spent getting there may be longer than getting the last cultural points. An engineer would also be necessary. But one of those can be gotten from a CS. Seems like the fastest possible win requires some luck with CSs.
     
  20. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    I wont be able to build sydney opera house in this game unless I build a coastal city, and that isnt worth the extra 30% expense.

    My puppet city auto built Monument > Temple > Circus, so its really helping me a lot.
     

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