Civ VI to Civ VII Part Two: Natural and Un-Natural Wonders

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would like to see the return of the Hoover/Three Gorges dam for the electricity bonus. Fun as it is, the Ruhr valley just isn't going it for me and also doesn't make a lot of sense as a 'wonder'.

I'm surprised we didn't get a dam wonder in GS.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

What the wonders do will depend on mechanics, and game balance overarching policies on what abilities to dispense for hammer investment.

Wonder mechanics, I think have been played out in the "first person to finish gets everything" department. It was something to try and people don't like it, so try something else.
I would like to see the idea that when you start a wonder you don't pick the wonder yet; instead, you merely "build a cultural marvel" - something that you are permitted to do by meeting conditions. You know how Vox Populi and Civ VI each had ways of hiding the very ability to try a wonder behind a certain condition? And the total number of wonders you could have is limited? Anything that works like that could be in place, to allow you to try to "build a cultural marvel".
When you finish the cultural marvel, you get one. It does something worthwhile domestically and for your cultural heritage. But some sort of mechanic makes the construction "turn out to be" what we call a World Wonder. You build a cultural marvel in the 1800s, you meet the prereqs for Big Ben, bam, it's Big Ben. Naturally, some way to erase any random aspect is needed.

Let's examine this. The idea that people start building something without knowing what it is is, frankly, Fantasy. On the other hand, the idea that something might be built as a Monumental Structure or for a very specific purpose and turn out to have a very different effect is much easier to envision and justify.

So, I agree with the idea that you choose a 'Type' of Wonderous Cultural Structure. And the requirements for each such Structure are very specific: what 'allows' you to build, say, the Parthenon in the Classical Era may not allow you to build the Temple of Pythian Appollo (Oracle) or the Yellow Crane Tower. Each should also have slightly different characteristics/bonuses.

BUT As you progress, the effects of Wonders should change. Nobody's trying to plant a God/King inside a Pyramid any more, or mobilize a few thousand farmers between the planting and the harvest to build anything - the original characteristics simply don't apply. Yet the Pyramids are still a Cultural/National symbol of Egypt and a major source of Tourism - and Tourism Money, to the point that the tourism becomes a target for anti-government terrorists.

Even more extreme, the Long Wall/Great Wall as a Wonder would originally have defensive/military and possibly Trade (as in controlling it for taxation purposes) purposes/characteristics, but by the Modern Era and later - none of those really apply and in fact it would be hard to see where it has any effect in any of those areas, but is certainly still a Wonderous Structure.

2. Do we want to bring back National Wonders?
A bonus you can only get one of in the empire? Sure. A system that constrains expansion and development along an arbitrary timeline as a result of an extremely overcentralizing, overpowered, early game example of the kind? God no.

Completely Agree - at least, to bring them back in the Civ V form, completely agree. I think IF some kind of National Wonder mechanism was added (back) to the game in Civ VII, they should take the form of Wonderous Buildings, replacing a normal building with a less-than-game-changing set of extra bonuses and, potentially, later Tourism/Cultural or other effects (and giving us an excuse for more Graphic variety on the game map). For example, Rome's Cloaca Maxima might be a Wonderous Sewer, Greece/Athen's Lyceum a Wonderous Library, and later in the game, the option to replace your original Palace with a Wonderous Palace (Buckingham, Topkapi, Schönbrunn, Tuileries, etc) would be a good way to 'use up' a whole bunch of would-be World Wonders on the list without turning the game into a Wonders Я Us construction frenzy . . .

I'm surprised we didn't get a dam wonder in GS.

Well, they had already bungled an early Irrigation/Food/Flood Control Dam Wonder by using the fake Great Bath instead of the Great Dam of Mar'ib, but after that, yeah, there are a host of great Hydroelectric or Flood Control/Food dams available from the Modern Era on: Boulder/Hoover, Grand Coulee, Three Gorges, Itaipu, Aswan . . .

 

[ColdClimate]

Well, they had already bungled an early Irrigation/Food/Flood Control Dam Wonder by using the fake Great Bath instead of the Great Dam of Mar'ib

Is that what that's supposed to be? I could never figure out why a bath prevented flooding.

Off-topic, but it annoys be to no end that a hydroelectric plant will only power one city with a coal plant can reach 3...

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Also on the 'Forbidden City'
In many games in Sid Meier's Civilization series.
Forbidden City is World Wonder.
in Civ3 it is a national wonder, acting as a 'second seat of power' (as per Civ rules of that times that has Corruption debuff in each city you have and the farther a city away from the seat is. the more corruption a city generates). that it is ideally built only when you have at least continental empire or multicontinental ones.. building it so many many tiles away from capitol is an ideal.
In most Civ games. Forbidden City represents the actual palace complex built during Yuan Dynasty when Beijing was called Khanbaliq (I'm not sure what is the name of Kublai Khan China seat of power is). and there's indeed a similiarly looking 'wonderette' in VN (Hue city or what I don't rally know but it was built AFTER The Grand Palace was built in Eastside Bangkok).
In Europe. There were 'Forbidden Cities' that works the same way as in Civ3 I think. (but not sure if it really does). First Versailles Palace, built next to a small town of Versailles near Paris. Built by Louis XIV due to his own experiences with feudal lords rebellion in his youth that the very rebellions ALMOST took the Royal Palace. with his purpose to be his second seat if things in Paris went wrong (Another rebellion or Coup d'Etat attempts often happened in capitol), and to facilitate centralizations policy (keeping local overlords indulged inside his palace complex attracts them away from local problems or their cries to defy the King... i think). Then Sanssoucci near Potsdam, Germany, built as a part of Frederick II's plans to beef up Prussia (and to break away from Hapsburg Austria yokes). And even in Old Ayutthaya Kingdom, King Narai did built similiar palace complex in Lopburi with an entire starfort protecting it and the new city, the design was done by either French archetech or Constantin Phaulkon himself (I think), similiar purpose to Louis XIV... a protection against unruly feudal overlords particularly the Inner Circle dudes.

 

[AsH2]

Also on the 'Forbidden City'
In many games in Sid Meier's Civilization series.
Forbidden City is World Wonder.
in Civ3 it is a national wonder, acting as a 'second seat of power' (as per Civ rules of that times that has Corruption debuff in each city you have and the farther a city away from the seat is. the more corruption a city generates). that it is ideally built only when you have at least continental empire or multicontinental ones.. building it so many many tiles away from capitol is an ideal.
In most Civ games. Forbidden City represents the actual palace complex built during Yuan Dynasty when Beijing was called Khanbaliq (I'm not sure what is the name of Kublai Khan China seat of power is). and there's indeed a similiarly looking 'wonderette' in VN (Hue city or what I don't rally know but it was built AFTER The Grand Palace was built in Eastside Bangkok).
In Europe. There were 'Forbidden Cities' that works the same way as in Civ3 I think. (but not sure if it really does). First Versailles Palace, built next to a small town of Versailles near Paris. Built by Louis XIV due to his own experiences with feudal lords rebellion in his youth that the very rebellions ALMOST took the Royal Palace. with his purpose to be his second seat if things in Paris went wrong (Another rebellion or Coup d'Etat attempts often happened in capitol), and to facilitate centralizations policy (keeping local overlords indulged inside his palace complex attracts them away from local problems or their cries to defy the King... i think). Then Sanssoucci near Potsdam, Germany, built as a part of Frederick II's plans to beef up Prussia (and to break away from Hapsburg Austria yokes). And even in Old Ayutthaya Kingdom, King Narai did built similiar palace complex in Lopburi with an entire starfort protecting it and the new city, the design was done by either French archetech or Constantin Phaulkon himself (I think), similiar purpose to Louis XIV... a protection against unruly feudal overlords particularly the Inner Circle dudes.

Swedish Forbidden City
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsborg_Fortress

Spoiler Karlsborg Fortress :

Karlsborg Fortress (Swedish: Karlsborgs fästning) is situated on the Vanäs peninsula in Karlsborg by lake Vättern, the province of Västergötland, Sweden. Construction on the fortress began 1819 to realize the so-called central defense idea adopted by the Swedish military after the Finnish and Napoleonic Wars. The site was chosen by Baltzar von Platen in connection with the construction of Göta Canal.

The intent of the central defense idea was that the King, the Council, the Riksdag and central command functions would, in the event of an attack against the kingdom, pull back and ensconce themselves in this fortress in the middle of the country. Even the gold reserves of the central bank of Sweden were to be safeguarded in the fortress in times of trouble.

The fortress is one of northern Europe's largest buildings and consists primarily of limestone from Omberg. Construction was begun in 1819 on 100 hectares (250 acres) of land. The fortress was to house a garrison of 6,000 enlisted men and an additional 8,000-10,000 people. The walls were mostly complete in 1830, and after comprehensive visits to other fortresses in Europe, fortress architect Johan av Klen presented plans similar in style to the Fort Winiary in Posen (present-day Poznań).

Due to its great expense and reduced funding, the fortress wasn't in operation until 1870, and wasn't fully completed until 1909. To compensate for the rapidly evolving technology of artillery during this time, Vaberget Fortress was built in the early 1900s five kilometers west of Karlsborg to provide additional protection to the main fortress.

The town of Karlsborg has sprung up next to the fortress. It was initially mostly living quarters for personnel employed at the fortress, but grew to a sizable community, in part due to Göta Canal which passes through the town.


The garrison church.
Ever since the fortress lost its intended central defensive role in 1918 it has been used as a garrison for Göta Signal Regiment (S 2), and since 1984 Life Regiment Hussars (K 3), are also based there. The Swedish Parachute Ranger School and Särskilda Skyddsgruppen are also housed in the fortress. Next to the fortress is a munitions factory.

Karlsborg has been a Swedish listed building in Sweden (byggnadsminne) since 1935. The garrison church is especially worth visiting. The church is housed in the central building of the fortress, "the last stand", on the second floor above the Fortress Museum. The church was once intended as an assembly hall for the Riksdag in times of troubles. A chandelier composed of 276 bayonets instead of crystal prisms hangs from the ceiling.

 

[Unmitigated Gaul]

The wonder race is a lot of fun- you have to set up a city that can use the wonder effectively and then dedicate resources (trade routes, cards, builder chops, etc) to get it. The right wonder can start the snowball that wins the game for you.

Little in the game is more rewarding then a well done Petra or Mausoleum or personal Civ 6 favorite Great Zimbabwe. I think Torre De Belem will be fun too.

I think that the best criticism is that there are not enough wonders that interplay with conquest. I would think, thematically, that a lot of these were build to recognize conquests or other ancient triumphs.

If 6 adds more wonders, would love to see St Marks in Venice (added trade routes, relic slots, maybe faith/gold interplay).

Also would like to see Cathedral of Aachen (benefits to religious war- maybe no war weariness incurred against a Civ following another majority religion) and Gur-i-Amir (like warlords throne except it provides a boost to science/culture/faith/gold yields in the city for a set number of turns as a result of conquest).

 

[AsH2]

The wonder race is a lot of fun- you have to set up a city that can use the wonder effectively and then dedicate resources (trade routes, cards, builder chops, etc) to get it. The right wonder can start the snowball that wins the game for you.
..

To me, that's the formula for waste of time - not fun.

 

[thatweirdguy]

I think there should be a way for districts to evolve into wonders over time based on certain criteria.

 

[Naokaukodem]

To me, that's the formula for waste of time - not fun.

Yeah I agree but that's because wonders are not so wonderful than by the past. Remember how Leonardo's Workshop upgraded ALL your units in Civ2 ? Now that was something undoubtfully powerful. Some wonders might still worth the shot in Civ6, but they are not nearly as obvious as some dirty powerful bonus or feature, depending a lot of how you cheese your game... (i don't like cheese, i mean yeah i like cheese, but not in Civ )