Civ VII Post-mortem: Crafting a redemption arc

Doesn't even make sense given the designers and the artists are two completely different teams.
But money is money, and although it's distributed between teams, it's one resource. If you spend too much money on the finest graphical fidelity money can buy and on paying voice actors for niche languages an entire dozen people on earth still speak fluently (there is a very particular reason why Dido has the same VA in 5 and 6), that's less money you can set toward the mechanics.

"The suggestion was to throw even that away and have them be literal portraits with no VA no art no nothing." is also disingenuous because I don't want it all to go, I wanted them to dial it back. Pick one or the other. They can still talk and be animated, but don't worry about the entire scene. Or give me the whole scene and animate them but don't voice them to a significant degree. Ideally we could have all of it, but more than anything it gatekeeps the kinds of civs you can add.

One thing I will give 6 is having the best art direction in the series. It had great utility, looked good, and will age really well.

I will be able to play 6 ten years from now, where as 4 aged so awfully I can’t even look at the screen
I'm of the exact opposite opinion; 6's art has never clicked with me. 4's isn't tremendously better but it's ultimately easier on the eyes. There's "cartoon" and then there's "caricature", and 6 sits firmly in the latter and is simply ugly for it. The excessively corny denounces really don't help.
 
But money is money, and although it's distributed between teams, it's one resource. If you spend too much money on the finest graphical fidelity money can buy and on paying voice actors for niche languages an entire dozen people on earth still speak fluently (there is a very particular reason why Dido has the same VA in 5 and 6), that's less money you can set toward the mechanics.

"The suggestion was to throw even that away and have them be literal portraits with no VA no art no nothing." is also disingenuous because I don't want it all to go, I wanted them to dial it back. Pick one or the other. They can still talk and be animated, but don't worry about the entire scene. Or give me the whole scene and animate them but don't voice them to a significant degree. Ideally we could have all of it, but more than anything it gatekeeps the kinds of civs you can add.

But "the finest art money can buy" is not what Civ has.
Right now, Civ has a 3d model human who grunts at the screen and has 2 voiced lines besides that. He animates a little bit and that's it. And you know there is no throne room or anything like that. Or even a background.

I'm capable of swallowing cuts to voiced lines but you know, they should still be somewhat voiced right?

Anyhow, I think it's far-fetched to say that for example, they have to decide between giving the leaders background art and making the Religion mechanic fleshed out.

What we need is not the finest thing ever, just stylised beautiful art to go along with a leader that immerses you in the gameplay.
Because the leader screens are the only situation where you actually zoom into the game instead of looking from a birds eye view.
This is generally the best location to situate attention to detail.
 
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I don't know whether people posted on blue sky and elsewhere, so it could just be the poster here being on blue sky themselves and seeing posts there rather than being on linked in and showing posts from that site, so I haven't asked that very question myself. But anyone that posts on bluesky and not linked in strikes me as someone who wants to aura farm over actually accomplish the task at hand... Can definitely see some echos of that with Civ VIIs design philosophy
 
Ok, I finally was able to get the credits data cleaned up so that you all could take a look and play with it to your heart's content (link). You can go to the File menu and "Make a copy" and have your own to play with. I did a lot of work marking Product babies, Emotional Support Animals, etc. so that they could be filtered out.
"Emotional support animal"

While I'm sure this is a cute way for a support studio to get their pets into the credits and I really have nothing against it, it also infuriates me because of the amount of insanely long hours under intense pressure from aggressively toxic bosses I've had to work in my life, probably being paid less than people who get to add "fun little details" to their studio credits memo. It's an age of not only wealth inequality, but life and work experience inequality as well. A lot of these studios have so many "first world problems" issues it drives me mad. At least they could have made a better game.

I think I finally found my white whale. Civ VII had too many chefs in the kitchen - based on the game credits (link), while the number of Developers at Firaxis doubled from Civ VI and VII, the number of Designers tripled.




Note: this was after de-duplicating and removing people who were listed as Designers in the game credits but had other primary roles. Originally the credits listed 34 people as Designers.

If everyone in the room gets to have one of their ideas implemented, that dilutes the focus needed to get the features to a release-ready state.

Fewer developers per designer also means less resources to build each of those out, burning the candle at both ends.

If you’re looking for the smoking gun on the Rule of Thirds violation, this is probably it.

I don't agree. It's all about management. A well managed design team with quality members can task delegate and stay focused. I admit that complicated management schemes require quality team members and are always inhibited by the weakest link. However, if you're making a $137 million game with thousands of employees, can you like hire quality designers? Also, there are large industrial products corporations who are able to engage in quality open-source design and everyone involved in development should have a way to contribute ideas and there should be a low-cost process for evaluating ideas.

I really don't understand how four minds can conceive of an entire $100 million product. That's not right. The best classic games were all hands on deck.
 
I'm rambling a bit, mainly a you to me to you kind of thing, I guess it's not that interesting to the rest of the thread / will just be taken as posting in defense of Firaxis. It could be too many chefs, for sure, but it could be a pre-existing resource problem (given programmer salaries) that requires designers to double-dip more and more, or it could be something else.
Why not pay lower salaries to less experienced devs or even entry level, and actually train them a little?

Industry people cry there's no talent, but then CS grads complain that no one's hiring. What's the deal?
 
Why not pay lower salaries to less experienced devs or even entry level, and actually train them a little?

Industry people cry there's no talent, but then CS grads complain that no one's hiring. What's the deal?
Feels like a tangent I can't really do justice in this thread. Short answer, ignoring economics for a minute, would be: the people doing the hiring are neither of the groups listed.
 
Why not pay lower salaries to less experienced devs or even entry level, and actually train them a little?

That only delays the problem. After training them, you will have to increase their paymentos or risk losing them

If you have Devs already trained that do a good work, its quite often the best decision to keep them, even at a slightly higher cost. Its better to keep someone that has already proven to be worth it than to spend time and resources training someone new that you might realize if it will do as good as a jog than the one you have

You should always have new trainees though, to cover for possible future vacancies, try to discover gems and getting fresh ideas
 
That only delays the problem. After training them, you will have to increase their paymentos or risk losing them

If you have Devs already trained that do a good work, its quite often the best decision to keep them, even at a slightly higher cost. Its better to keep someone that has already proven to be worth it than to spend time and resources training someone new that you might realize if it will do as good as a jog than the one you have

You should always have new trainees though, to cover for possible future vacancies, try to discover gems and getting fresh ideas
My opinion is that it's a cultural phenomenon that, if not unique, at least began with the last couple of generations.

I've had so many managers who:
  1. Think in terms of short term success.
  2. Focus heavily on how they appear to higher ups, where managing optics and blame takes up more energy than making things work.
  3. An attitude of "I got mine screw you."
  4. A boys' club or frat boys attitude that if you hold the car keys/building keys/keys to the kingdom, you're entitled to use it as your personal playground for people you like.
  5. Common narcissistic behavioral patterns, creating loyal inner cliques and identifying outliers you can persecute and turn the community against.
  6. Higher up leadership that actually really dose only care about appearances, not causes, and is firmly quarterly minded.
There are some economic reasons for this. It's the result of "Modern Monetary Theory" which solve the problem of a poorly structured economy by essentially leveraging the entire economy against massive high risk, high return investments which in theory finally fund the parts of the economy which are structurally wasteful. It also creates more waste. This makes the base structure of the economy unaffordable, so you can't really afford to invest in a studio, a company, people, etc. Ironically though, there's a flood of money available for more expensive high-return investments, but these are indeed measured on a quarterly basis. Lowly capital needs can't compete with quarterly demands, even though there's a ton of money to be had to spend and waste on failed investments, so long as there's a chance it could lead to high returns.

There's no feedback loop to reward doing things the "right" way but you have to do things the right way at a minimum, so the entire burden of performance is placed on a declining expert experience class to make up for the institutional shortfalls in the places where they work. If you work somewhere caught in the money hype loop, like AI, as a top expert, your compensation will be obscene. Outside of that, you're grinding longer hours, with more expected of you. Got a skills gap? Your problem entirely to solve at your own cost and time, always, inevitably. And if you look at inflation and cost of living then integrate it into your anticipated salaries adjusted for time value of money, you'll find out that your lifetime anticipated wealth is closer to the poverty line than you'd think.

I think the only exceptions are in these niche foundational fields like industrial control systems which are actually required for the real economy to function, so they do tend to pay their staffs to go off and get training to keep up with trends.

Anyway, this seems to be an overarching reality. Resource and economy driven, so 4X brain... And it's a systemic feature that could explain a lot of the economic but also cultural constraints affecting why the game turned out this way.

You know, there was a bill lately I think North Carolina wants to grant immigration visas for medical professionals because they have a shortage. This is ironic because medical schools and the residency system in the US explicitly limit the number of doctors produced every year. The left hand isn't talking to the right.

In my case, while I did end up getting a CS as a second degree, when I was first in college with a 5 on my AP CS AB I sought out the CS major - this was my state school, and the only tuition I could afford, and a I had been given a scholarship. I was told that CS was limited enrollment and you had to apply in your senior year of high school and it was highly competitive with limited space, and there was nothing I could do except transfer schools (where I wouldn't receive in state tuition). What's up with that? Why are we restricting the number of CS professionals being produced, but then complaining there aren't enough of them?

I think I literally dove into a rabbit hole of Civ 3 addiction after being mildly depressed about the above, so I frankly am not very happy at what happened with Civ 7. I think I would have got myself fired being a spark-plug complaining about the game had I been working there, which I think is the energy this industry once had, and according to rumors, this is literally what happened with the UI team.

So frustrating.
 
Firaxis (like most studios with an in-house engine) seem to build on previous iterations instead of starting new versions from scratch. The engine for VII will have started as the version that still exists in VI (and to VI, from V, in turn).

Chunks of it will probably have been rewritten (game engines tend to be a lot more modular and less monolithic than folks presume), but mapping the line of which game's engine it is is . . . pretty difficult. Very Ship of Theseus-like.
I keep coming back to this quote and the next and how they together may have caused a lot of the issues.

Everything I hear about where things are going wrong with this game feels like it's in practice and fundamentals of software development. You can get a company filled with the best individuals at their jobs in the world but if your processes to get them working together are flawed you're still gonna end up with a mess
The more I've thought about it, the more I'm convinced that these two statements are highly related. Firaxis seems to have had not just software development process failures, but process disintegration.

That's pretty rare in the world of software. If anything, the opposite usually happens; processes become inflexible and burdensome as expertise is lost. The tooling (tracking systems such as Jira, etc.) itself holds the institutional knowledge.

A custom engine complicates that further, as that tooling is usually bespoke and tightly integrated into the engine and process. People avoid messing with the tooling (and by extension the processes therein) because it tends to be high-risk, low-reward.

So if you port the engine to a new tech stack, portions of that tooling may get missed, particularly if it wasn't well documente. Additionally, that tooling very likely had bespoke integrations to other systems (build systems, automated test frameworks, localization databases, performance and quality reporting dashboards). At the very least those integrations need to be re-established. Yet another chance for things to disappear in the shuffle. And if the tooling disappears, then you have no process and no people experienced in creating those processes.

For example, if you look in the Civ V Assets\Automation directory, you'll see a "DailyPlaytestRun.lua" script. Given the state of the quality problems, it's reasonable to assume that those bespoke automation frameworks were probably lost.

This was one of Firaxis' biggest mistakes around the new architecture - they didn't take into account the software process work when planning the new architecture. To be fair to Firaxis, they were new to this type of work. I've seen enterprise companies that should have known better make the same mistake.

Regardless, this puts them in a very bad spot. They want to make the race car go faster, but they are missing oil, brake fluid, and radiator fluid. That's why their velocity on making substantive changes is so poor. They are being hamstrung left and right by process problems.

Apologies for the deep dive on what must seem to be arcane details. I've been accused of being an architectural purist, but when you are operating at scale and at high-velocity, those details matter a great deal more than you first realize. Nobody thinks about clean water and stable electrical power - until you don't have them.
 
I highly doubt something like civ is something that you could ever truly automate testing on. It's a fluid game, things change a lot. It's not like financial calculations where you know what you need to get out of it and need to make sure that doesn't change with another fix. Some things you may be able to scope out, but only at a very high level.

You right - automation is not one-size fits all, and it works best for baseline checks - ensuring yields, yield modifiers, and costs are all matching the design levels. Those are all deterministic and well-suited for automation. It's the only way to do daily full test passes covering the gamut of permutations and ensure no regressions have slipped in.

But by itself automation is not sufficient. Combat and anything else RNG-based would need a different approach, probably a Monte Carlo simulation. And finally human testing for getting a feel for the pacing.

If you look in the Civ V Assets\Automation directory, you can can see hints of the test scripting used for that version. It's possible they used that for Civ VI as well but cleaned up the build tree so that those weren't exposed. Civ VII moved away from Lua and that may have thrown a spanner in the works for QA.
 
I keep coming back to this quote and the next and how they together may have caused a lot of the issues.


The more I've thought about it, the more I'm convinced that these two statements are highly related. Firaxis seems to have had not just software development process failures, but process disintegration.

That's pretty rare in the world of software. If anything, the opposite usually happens; processes become inflexible and burdensome as expertise is lost. The tooling (tracking systems such as Jira, etc.) itself holds the institutional knowledge.

A custom engine complicates that further, as that tooling is usually bespoke and tightly integrated into the engine and process. People avoid messing with the tooling (and by extension the processes therein) because it tends to be high-risk, low-reward.

So if you port the engine to a new tech stack, portions of that tooling may get missed, particularly if it wasn't well documente. Additionally, that tooling very likely had bespoke integrations to other systems (build systems, automated test frameworks, localization databases, performance and quality reporting dashboards). At the very least those integrations need to be re-established. Yet another chance for things to disappear in the shuffle. And if the tooling disappears, then you have no process and no people experienced in creating those processes.

For example, if you look in the Civ V Assets\Automation directory, you'll see a "DailyPlaytestRun.lua" script. Given the state of the quality problems, it's reasonable to assume that those bespoke automation frameworks were probably lost.
I am not a game developer, but I think custom engines are more the rule than the exception in strategy games. It is possible that their old engine had a huge tech debt or other issues. It is almost certainly given because Civ 6 is such an old game. If it is from Civ V, it is prehistoric, dating back to the age of the dinosaurs.

But we dont know, though.

I would not count much on the absence of scripts either. Shipped products should be stripped of unused and auxiliary files.
 
I mean, there are pretty substantial rumors the UI team mass quit after last minute structural design changes, and a lot of the finish line stuff was outsourced.
Sid gave a talk on game design back before Civ6 was released and he constantly referred to feedback being received by testers. You can't release a game that hasn't been played and tweaked and that is a process that takes time. But everything I have seen indicates they didn't do it.

I don't understand why anyone would buy the product. Except, my son and I got a PS edition, which I hoped to be something we could have in common. And maybe bring my other son and grandkids in. But it's worthless for that purpose. So that's five of us right there that won't be spending any more money on Firaxis.
 
I managed to identify 80% of the people impacted by the layoff (LinkedIn + Regex). The numbers are below, and they make me incredibly sad that the wrong people paid the price.

AD_4nXfKPxfr5bY1q8AA2HRKndeJE9cpage3tMG4ClVMugDL2UYSfFoQB9jxGxUjmdYHCk46vBwFixxkwohbxlJYhxxZ2fBaFmk6W4g0P0e5ju72A1zRgRfndVPxOgHtN4br2eqbXsvNeg


Just to deal with the elephant in the room, the executives should have been impacted. Hopefully they took a pay cut (I did so myself when I had to let some of my PMs go during Covid).
Edit: As I was reviewing the LinkedIn profiles in detail, I noticed that the COO had departed voluntarily in June to take a role at another company. That's probably the reason no other changes were made at the Exec level, as they were in the middle of making changes to the org structure to distribute the COO's responsibilities to others. Additional changes would have created chaos at a time when they needed stability. Based on that new information, I withdraw the above comment.​

But don't let that distract from the real issue: the people most responsible for this mess weren't held accountable at all. Not the executives; the "I'm going to remove the Restart option because I don't think it's the right way to play" Designers. In fact, there's now only a 2-to-1 ratio of Designers to Developers. The number of Developers is now essentially the same as for Civ VI. Forget too many chefs in the kitchen; Firaxis is running out of cooks in the kitchen.

Also, there's certainly a large number of UI people relative to the UI we received, don't you think?
 
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You right - automation is not one-size fits all, and it works best for baseline checks - ensuring yields, yield modifiers, and costs are all matching the design levels. Those are all deterministic and well-suited for automation. It's the only way to do daily full test passes covering the gamut of permutations and ensure no regressions have slipped in.

But by itself automation is not sufficient. Combat and anything else RNG-based would need a different approach, probably a Monte Carlo simulation. And finally human testing for getting a feel for the pacing.

If you look in the Civ V Assets\Automation directory, you can can see hints of the test scripting used for that version. It's possible they used that for Civ VI as well but cleaned up the build tree so that those weren't exposed. Civ VII moved away from Lua and that may have thrown a spanner in the works for QA.

The only thing id say that might give Firaxis some credit is that we don't know how much of their team is focussed on fixes and free patch development Vs working on paid for dlc / expansion content that isn't yet announced.

If they've been all hands on deck with fixes, then they've got some serious problems. If they've got a token sprint team or 2 addressing fixes whilst the bulk of the staff are working towards the next big release, then that might explain some of the pace issues at least
 
Did they even have a group of gamers testing the game during development?
I think maybe it wouldn't have mattered in this case. The time for a gamer to tell them that ages and civ-switching would alienate many players would have been when it was first floated as an idea. Once the game was built enough for someone to playtest, they were committed to the design decision that has proved fatal to this game's success.
 
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