Civ3 High Score Hall of Fame

Did you see my original post about scoring categories? You can keep everything you have and add a 'Tournament Rules section' Where tournament rules are something like Medium sized map, all victory conditions on, 7 rivals, default map settings.
 
The other problem with mixing map sizes is you will only see tiny conquests for many months.

As for turning off victory conditions, thats kind what my previous post was asking, I don't think saying using the standard rules is enough as evidence by the few questions here.

It would be easy to tell if someone turned off domination, space ship, or cultural (maybe). As for specific cheats, maybe, some relflect themselves on the power history, like the gold cheats of pre-patch. I would think a 20/20/2 warrior would also show up, sinces thats very powerful.

I'm all for a standardization of the games, all civs on, default winning conditions, standard sized map. However, that takes on the appeal of a tourney, not high scores. As far as high scores are concerned quick conquest victory, and extended milking of a large map will make the highest scores.
 
Yeah, the high score is not worth going for currently.

After more thinking on it I think the best way would be much more complex than people might desire here. Rather than having a "top ten" of highest scores I'd like to see:

Top 3 scores.
Earliest 3 domination.
Earliest 3 conquest.
Earliest 3 UN.
Earliest 3 Spaceship.
Earliest 3 Culture.

And make the map the computer generated normal sized with 7 opponents and ALL victory conditions on. Games needing to be saved at 4000bc, 10ad, last turn.

I might even be willing to help sort through some of the games if there were just too many coming in. The current situation of tiny conquests just isn't enough to motivate me to try for it anymore. Although I guess I have a couple I could send in, but they are in the 5-6k range on Deity. /shrug

Eliezar
 
Not to give anyone ideas, but you can change the rules and have a 20/20/6 special unit. When you're at the last enemy city just disband all you special units and save the game. Go back into the rules and change the bic file. Now start the game back up and then resave it. Now when you start the game for the final time you have the original rules in the bic file and all evidence of cheating is gone. How can you stop this? Playing around last night I won on tiny with an 9,000 plus score. I'm sure that if I tweak the game I can get much higher. While I wouldn't get satisfaction because I knew my score was bogus, someone else would probably never beat it. You need a single set of criteria and a better way to check for cheating.
 
Ha, I've gotten 18k on diety with conquest without cheating. So with any mod cheat you'll still need to be at the top of your skill to build and get those units made. Unless you have some cheats for that too.
 
Personally, I would very much enjoy a HOF for top scores in Civ III, but at the same time it would be almost impossible to prevent cheaters. As jju_57 pointed out the trouble in actually preventing cheaters to post saved games, I would definitely have to agree.

:D This is a very good idea at the same time! :D

Until we get a patch that can actually fix this little problem, I'm thinking this HOF list might be sort of pointless.
 
But you guys are assuming that the games being sent in are cheated games. Why is that?

I know it might be hard to beat the some of the scores you see, but that's the whole point of the HOF. To show what others are capable of and let others see if they can elevate their game play to better levels becasue of it.

If anybody thinks a game is cheated all they have to do is PM or e-mail me and it will be looked into.

I sent Thunderfall the update yesterday, but it looks he hasn't updated the page yet. I added a text file to tetley's Deity game explaining how to finish it properly. There were 11 more submissions this time. Smirk covered the list with new #1 spots in all but one level. I wonder how long he will stay on top with all the submissions I am getting. I have 5 new ones yesterday alone. :crazyeyes
 
None of the scores so far would hint at being cheats to me. I decided to edit stuff and see what score I could get while cheating on a randomly made map and it was about 3 times the top score so far.

Eliezar
 
Well for my HOF submissions not only were they not cheats, but I wasn't going for a high score either. They were played before the HOF opened. All I did was dig up my old saved games. I deleted them earlier, but fortunately I didn't empty the Recycling Bin (in Windows) so they were still there.

BTW my Deity win was Persians, my Monarch was Aztecs. No shocker there. If you really want to go for a high score, start-and-restart as Japanese until you get Horses.
 
To test it out I played a game on diety, tiny 1 opponent and modified the Aztecs to have a 20/20/6 warrior and 4 techs with all attributes turned on. I played against the French. My score was 27,912! I then modified the game and no warnings or other evidence appeared to show that I cheated. The reply shows me destroying Paris three times but that is the only indication that something was wrong. After all how could my two arriors defeat all those units that the AI gets for free.
 
Here's my thought......

I plan to make the Civ 3 HOF based off of a minimum map size and number of civs.

Right now I am leaning towards the minimum being a standard map with at least 4 other civs.

So, a default game would be:

A computer generated map, allowing all victory conditions and random selection of at least four computer opponents (see below). The computer opponents must be random selections. You can select your preference on Type of land mass and water amount, as well as Barb activity and difficulty level.

For a Standard Map you would need to have at least four rivals.
For a Large Map you would need to have at least six rivals.
For a Huge Map you would need to have at least eight rivals.

Comments?
 
I think minimum map size AND USING FIRAXIS' SCORING would be worse than what we have now already. I don't have the answers (I probably won't be submitting, either--Empire Earth, baby! :goodjob: ), but I expect lots of Huge maps ending around 2050 if you do that.

My opinion: no random maps in the HOF. Do high-scores on a per-scenario basis only, and allow restarts from 4000 bc.
 
You'll see the same problems with huge maps that you currently see with tiny, but only they will be milked games and obviously will take a longer time.

Each of those games I recently submitted took at most an hour to complete. Some of them like the extremely easy low difficulty games took maybe 15 minutes. On chieftain, only 1 civ actually had defenders. Compare that to a larger map when it can take a few minutes waiting for the AI to move, and then easily 15+ minute for you to deal with your civ (like gotm2). I quickly grow bored of this, but as you'll see once the gotm2 scores come up, plenty of people *will* do this for a high score.

So if you do what you suggest you will get some early conquests initially and then a load of milked games. I'm not sure why you are leaning towards the larger maps, why allow huge but not small? I don't play anything greater than standard. And standard only a few times. I have a fast machine, but the micro-management involved is just way too tedious for me.

Anyway, Firaxis' scoring is just broken, its only based on city area and population (which are actually closely linked) so in effect you are just getting x2 score for how many cities you have. Ignoring that very general problem, there is no scale at all for map size. A larger map will allow you to build more cities and obviously have more population and land area which will directly affect your score.

If you want to make the standard size the standard size I suggest you deviate from standard the same in both directions and have a self made scale factor for each. I would just make it simple, figure out a scale factor based only on how many tiles are present in small and large, the goal being if you have an exact civ in either of those maps your score would be the same. In other words a tile in standard may be worth 1 point, a tile in small 1.25 and in large 0.75, or something along those lines. Whats the actual tile size of the maps?

Then once that problem is solved you'll have to deal with random maps, not all maps are created equal. My idea is to have people include the 4000bc save along with the highscore so others can remove the "good map" bonus and compete directly with a current highscore, the intention being to remove any luck factors and create a skill only ranking. If I get a highscore on a map, and then you play it and get a better score, you are obviously the better player and more deserving of the highscore. However, you'll still have to rely on players being honest and not replaying a map forever to improve their "that map only skills".

Thats a fine tradeoff in my mind since there is only so much you can do with any given map, but across all the possible random maps there will be a large variance in scores. That also doesn't change much with map size since the score is an average, if you start with a bad map and have bad land initially you're score will always be hurt by that.

Just take a look at my deity game, that was easily the easiest deity game I've played and that was reflected in the score since I got a quick conquest. Its all because of some wheat flood plains. If you play a deity game and don't have similar resources at the start you simply won't be able to attain a comparable score (in conquest that is).
 
Smirk would you agree that scoring of Civ III in itself is ******** and that the fastest finish is actually what is more skillfull? I think score should be dumped for 3 earliest wins, earliest conquest, earliest domination, earliest spaceship, earliest culture, and earliest diplomatic. Even on size normal maps the best scores will probably be games that are won around 1ad and then milked for score until 2050. 8(

Eliezar
 
I agree that the scoring system is very much flawed for Civ 3. So, until that is adjusted in some manner (either by Firaxis or us) I do not want to have it where I just get a flood of tiny conquest games.

Granted, the larger maps that are milked will produce a high score. Good. Let people show that they can play a prolonged game and do good.

Some of the submissions I have are ridiculous. If they hadn't captured the last city in the game, their empire would have fallen apart in two turns. I don't want games that show that you can ignore your cities and just crank out troops and kill the other guy really fast. I want games that show people can develope their civs as well as kick the AI's butt. Plus, the cultural and domination victories would keep people from simply milking the game till the end. There is only so long you can go before you reach 20,000 culture points.

I would like to see games where there is more effort given to actually playing the game rather than trying to get a high score.
 
Duke,

I think you are headed in the right direction with those rules. I played a decent game, got 5500 points or so, and thought about submitting it to the HOF. I saw those high-score early conquest games, and decided not to enter. I'm just not interested in competing with that style of game.

My only suggestion would be to have more civ's required than 4 - or is the number of civ's sufficiently built into the scoring already.

Anyway, I'd enter it with the rules you're proposing. They narrow the possibilites enough to make it interesting.

Thanks,

Dunster
 
Back
Top Bottom