Civ3 High Score Hall of Fame

Originally posted by Dunster
Duke,

... I'm just not interested in competing with that style of game.

Classic excuse, those who can't compete, choose to not want to compete.

As for the comment about empires falling apart, none of mine would have, so I'll assume you're talking about someone else's submissions.

The facts are simply that building is easy, anyone can do it. The large appeal civ has is based on that, if its more difficult than simcity than the "mass" can no longer enjoy it. If you are gonna candy coat HOF and define rules that disallow conquest then you should rename HOF to Hippy HOF or better yet HOF for the Masses.

Anyone that can achieve a fast conquest can just as easily not take that last city and still score better than any other style (ie Dunster's, whatever that may be). You can see the evidence of that on the last gotm, the winners were those who controlled the game earliest and then built until the end of the game. Is that skill? I don't consider anything after the person was in control skillful. Its just like simcity at that point.

If you change the map size to some minimum size like standard or large you'll have the exact same situation, except people will milk the game. Maybe not the same situation since I would never play a game like that.

Also culture and domination are just hurdles, you can easily just trash a lot of temples to prevent a culture win. In the gotm2 thread a few people got into the specifics of what it takes to get a domination, so people will just stay under the wire until they have reached 2050.
 
If you are gonna candy coat HOF and define rules that disallow conquest then you should rename HOF to Hippy HOF or better yet HOF for the Masses.

I'm not going to disallow conquest. I am just going to make it be where the map has to be bigger, and have a minimum number of civs to play against.

Anyone that can achieve a fast conquest can just as easily not take that last city and still score better than any other style

Good, let them show that they can dominate the game early on and then maintain their civ for an extended period of time.

Each of those games I recently submitted took at most an hour to complete. Some of them like the extremely easy low difficulty games took maybe 15 minutes.

That is part of the problem that I am having. It is taking me longer to process some of these games I receive then it is for people to play them. Plus, a game that only has two cities (a starting city and a captured AI city) in it before it is done is not much to look at for a HOF submission.

So, what is going to happen with this next update is that I will remove all the tiny and small maps from the listing. They will be listed separtely on the HOF page to acknowledge those who took the effort to submit those games. The new maps size restrictions and number of Civs will be listed as requirments for a submission.
 
Aren't we all struggling here with the HOF in relation with Civ III? I see valid arguments from Duke towards tiny conquests and valid arguments from a lot of posters for making high scores for what Civ III rules allow. I would guess the standard rules is a bare minimum, yet how to deal with country mod-packs? I enjoy the Dutch modpack, which is based on the Babies, but the Bab UU is replaced by a VOC Galleon, right guess, an upgraded Galleon.

My gut feel is that the scoring system is questionable (stands for sux) given the high bonus for milking and for early victory. Don't we all agree that the first is tedious and the latter is not really a game at all? I must admit that my high score play style in Civ I and II was milking, i.e. have one civ with one pathetic city left and work land and develop future civs and raise lux levels to max in 2010 etc. Most of the time it was game over when you were first to develop Armor and rush over your buddies. I am certainly not planning to rehearse that in III.

Going back to both tiny conquest and milking it is apparent that in both cases the AI is insignificant, period! Why not turn that around and make the (in)significance of the AI civ a factor in score calculations. OK, it requires Firaxis to make changes to the scoring system, on the other hand we can't expect Duke to set HOF rules all the time and wait for the next poster to find the next gap!

Some ideas (random order) and with Civ III point accumulation in mind:

1. Make the score of AI civs a factor in your own score in a way that strong AI Civs can be good for your score.

2. Also, if there are no strong Civs around that has a negative effect on your score.

3. Do this in relation (and not by itself) with the year where high score is made.

4. Make the scoring mechanism more versatile i.e. include Culture by some means in the scoring mechanism.

5. Make the AI UNDERSTAND that there is a point where it should stop messing around and just plain surrender!

6. Set a minimum of whatever (pop, land area, culture, year, number of cities) before victory can be called (Civ III is full of examples of these minimum criteria..............).

So, I'd like to play indeed for fun and skill and not being chasing around for the next loophole or stupid whatever and most of all have a decent HOF.

Please feel free to respond! :)
 
Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough

That is part of the problem that I am having. It is taking me longer to process some of these games I receive then it is for people to play them. Plus, a game that only has two cities (a starting city and a captured AI city) in it before it is done is not much to look at for a HOF submission.

Thats what I voiced concern about a week or so ago, clearly tiny with only 1 enemy civ is not the default rules, by my estimation. The old high score for chieftain was exactly that, however I beat that score in my first game without selecting some of the civs to none. Chieftain by design is easy. Why not cut out everything below regent also since it is such a pushover.

My vote is for adjusting the scoring so that its more fair across the board then to set more stringent default rules that will only rule out certain styles of play.
 
I agree that the scoring system being used in Civ 3 does not reflect the ability to play a game well as opposed to playing it fast. For now, changing the parameters that games can be played within is the the easiest recourse I have. Unless a new scoring system is developed that acurately reflects all aspects of the game the only thing I can do is make it where people play a sustained game with a minimum number of AI players. Otherwise the HOF is nothing more than a slash fest.

So, unfortunately, until something revolutionary comes along, setting minimum standards is an attempt to make the HOF worth trying for.
 
Beam, may I say those are great ideas.
Makes me think, I dont know what interaction official Fireaxis staff have with the forum (if there is any), all I know is that from so much posts and ideas they (and the players) could profit so much.

Duke, dont take me wrong, I commend you for your work at the HOF and your efforts to make it work. Im not usually a pessimist, but I dont really see how any type of HOF for civ3 can work out, unless drastic, insightfull changes are made to the core of the game and its scoring system.

One of the things that makes civ3 the great and unique game it is, is the randomness factor you can find everywhere in the game.

First, on tiny maps, you simply need to have a wheat on a flooded plain to start with. Then you go mad rushing units. You will need luck again to have the AI players near to you. On Smirks game they were all on the same, small and packed continent wich obviously made his life easier.

You will also need some luck as to how the AI plays, who they engage war with, whatever they get good units fast or not, all in all an overwhelming number of random occurrances.

Basically the "skill" one might be so proud of in an early victory, is the "skill" to abuse the ridiculous overpowering that despot rushing gives you on the early game. Take tiny maps in account, and the overpower is ten times higher.

Personally I think rushing units/buildings is completly messed up, being unrealistic and overpowering at the same time. If it was up to me, Id change it so that the shields you get for rushing depended upon other factors, such as wich era you are in, how many shields the city normally produces, etc. Think about it, its damn stupid, say a city with max corruption. They can barely produce 1 shield, but if you ask your citizens to rush build it they do it promptly and perfectly. It doesnt make any sense, and this is just one of a thousand examples you can think of about how rushing is just wrong.

Smirk, dont think Im trying to offend you or anything. Im a pro counterstrike player myself, and me and my team will use each and every bug/exploit in the game we can find if its good to beat our opponent, given that its a legal bug/exploit. You are out for high score, wich is what the HOF is ultimately about, and you did well at it. This is a competition for high score, not the most pretty civilization.
However, dont pick on people who feel that this is a silly way to play civ3 - I know I do. I like to "nerd on" civ and do what I want to. I just ended my first game, emperor on medium map with japanese. I couldve easily won by space race, instead I built about 50 ICBMs and tons of ground troops, and laid waste to my 2 allies who controlled 2/3 of the world. Now that was fun :). My score was something like 4k but I had my fun :).

Well GOTM is great because it puts everyone on the same ground (however luck and randomness is still a big factor concerning how the AI behaves during the game). But on a random map...I dont see how it can work out. Its my humble opinion that its a damn waste of time to compete for points in civ3. It doesnt prove a thing. You can play twice on the same map and it will never be the same because the AI will behave in a different way every time. Sometimes they will grow more powerfull then you, sometimes weaker.

Skill comes in play when you are dealing with an AI who happened to grew more powerfull, and unfortunately there is no scoring for skill like this.
 
If I may add to that Storm, yep it is that kind of play that makes the game, yet is so difficult to measure. Most exiting times are when you're in real competition with another Civ and that is where my idea for scoring related to other Civs came from. Score accumulation as implemented in Civ III can be a big help here!

IMHO the two civ, two city type of high score play has very limited sustained appeal and if not removed will be on top of HOF until Civ 4 is available and I think Duke will come up with some logical and easy to check rules for HOF entry that still allow that particular type of gameplay.

btw Duke your work and input is very much appreciated!!! :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: !!

The milking strategy is another issue (done it often in I and II, hate it a lot now). The only way I can think of where this could be made manageble for HOF entry (I mean reject milking HOF entries) is that a HOF entry file must come with a savfile of lets say 20 turns before indicating reasonable competing Civ activity at that point in time. Like double the nummer of AI cities with a minimum of four or something like that! The idea here is that milkers and all the others have 20 turns left after achieving near global domination to make whatever finish they want! (btw not sure how this works with the various victory types, should HOF entry allowance not require to have all victory options switched on???)

Hope you can add to these ideas and keep HOF alive, even with the limitations Firaxis implemented and making life easier for Duke. Evey hour spend on a HOF entry is an hour less you can spend in playing the game!!!!

Duke, is there a way we can make sure these ideas are shared with Firaxis???
 
I was thinking....since we all agree, including Duke who is the HOF administrator, that the actual scoring system is very far from being a good way to calculate skill, maybe it should be completly ignored.

You would have several different categories like "fastest conquest on medium map - deity level". You would get interesting categories like "fastest space race on large map - emperor" and so on.
What would count its the year you finished the game. I think this way skill would be closer to be accurately calculated. Being able to quickly achieve, say, a culture victory on a huge map on deity would for sure be an awesome thing to accomplish.

So you have all this categories, victory condition (5) X map size (5) X difficulty (6). That would account to an enourmous number of 150 categories wich is far from reasonable to be administrated by 1 guy alone. This could be trimmed down, for instance, allow only medium sized maps and above. Also, only monarch level and above (I feel a HOF shouldnt pay much attention to lower levels of difficulty. Altho it may not please the masses, the HOF is where the real good players should be listed).
This way its trimmed down to (5) X (3) X (3), 45 categories. Much more reasonable. Eventually, some of the categories might not have entries at all for a long long time, like culture/deity/huge I mentioned above.

To make a multi categories system work, it would need a top 10 players board. This board would take all the victories a player achieved on every category he sucessfully entered, adding them up on a points system.

For instance. Having the 1st position on a category gives you 10 points, having the tenth position would give 1 point. As an example, Joe achieved 1st place on "fastest UN victory/medium/monarch" (10 points), also 3rd place on "fastest UN/large/emperor" (7 points) and 6th place on "fastest space race/huge/deity" (4 points). Joe have a total of 21 points to compete for the top 10. Under his name on the top 10 board would be a summary os his achieved victories on the categories he applied in.

The actual score and tribe used to win a game could show up on the HOF just for presentation purposes only. We agree that the scoring system is almost useless to point out skill. And as far as the tribe used goes, I feel its like a personal choice of weapon used to do the job, so it could show up for others to learn from.

If two players ended a particular category on the same year, THEN the score could be used to determine wich one will have the higher spot on the list.

On a system like this, only the fastest players wins. Altho this still is not 100% ideal, I think its way better then scoring system. It completly eliminates milking. I think you will agree that pop/territory only serves you to achieve a final goal, and should not be motives of rewarding. Being able to quickly impose a victory on several of the categories will be especially hard, and a motive of rewarding.

Thanks for reading thro...Duke plz tell me how you feel about this idea.
 
Makes sense and can be done with simple parameters. IMHO however 45 lists is still way to much to administer even with top 10s derived from that. Just thinking out loud here to eliminate one categorie:

Diff. level? No, this is where most challenge is coming from.

Map size? Hm, the bigger the map, the more time is needed (I believe), but it also provides more bekers for lets say Space Race.

Victory type? Well, the winner is always right isn't it. However, Diplo / Space Race require the more trading and negiotiating skills, while Culture, Domination and Conquest require the more aggressive skills. With all victory options active (and minimum criteria set) Conquest will never happen btw, and on the higer diff levels you need a big empire anyway to win on Culture. So IMHO victory types can be grouped in peacefull and aggressive!

So this could bring things down to 3 (diff.) x 3 (map) x 2 (Vic type peacefull or aggressive) = 18.

Question then is whether a split in Victory types matters for Mapsize?

Whatyathink?
 
Originally posted by Storm-br

Personally I think rushing units/buildings is completly messed up, being unrealistic and overpowering at the same time. If it was up to me, Id change it so that the shields you get for rushing depended upon other factors, such as wich era you are in, how many shields the city normally produces, etc.

Smirk, dont think Im trying to offend you or anything. Im a pro counterstrike player myself, and me and my team will use each and every bug/exploit in the game we can find if its good to beat our opponent, given that its a legal bug/exploit. You are out for high score, wich is what the HOF is ultimately about, and you did well at it. This is a competition for high score, not the most pretty civilization.

You don't see my commenting at all on other game styles, you paid for the game, you play it how ever you want. But I am enduring people commenting on my conquest play style. Saying its easy, not fun, worthless whatever. If you don't like it, don't play it, and complain to firaxis about how the score is weighted towards early conquest. Also of course stay away from playing multiplayer when/if it comes ouit since intelligent humans will have much more intelligence than the AI civs.

Your comments on the game design seem to be misdirected or at worst completely wrong. Forced labor resulting in increased production and death of the laborer is not unrealistic, happened at the time. That and flood plains *are* historically accurate, the first two civilzations that we have record of both were born on that concept. All along the nile (ie egyptians) was flood plains, and they irrigated it. And it took them a damn sight less than 1000 years to build *all* of their pyramids.


So if that means anything to you it should be that flood plain rushing is not a bug *or* exploit, its historically accurate. And also definately a concept designed to be in the game.

All the people against conquest need to be aware thats their own perception or choice; historically, conquest and wars are the meat of all civilizations.
 
The game I submitted last night took me 11 days to complete. Not milking, several things happened.
Got off to a slow start in culture, because the world ganged up on me very early, and I was at war most of the time after that. Built culture as fast as I could, but first I had to survive. By the time I found France and Russia, I had subjugated my continent that I initially shared with 4 others. And by that time they were both so far ahead in culture, there was no way to win by culture. Un was out, because they all thought I was a warmonger. Well, I did become one, by default:D
No city ever approached 20000. My core (original) cities were from 4000 to 8000 each. Yet I had a total of 160,000 at the end. No way to get twice as much as France as long as she was still producing. And to eliminate her ability to produce would have made a domination victory... which I got. By the same token, tech was not a problem, ie no fear of spaceship usurp. I had not even gotten to the space research, since Ihad other goals in mind, and France was 5 or 6 techs behind me.
I do think the score based on land size+Pop is wrong. Perhaps if we added a factor for culture, say culture score/100 and a factor for techs, say 10 points per tech, it might balance out the score some.
 
Duke,

Just curious when and how the HOF will be updated and / or based on modified rules?

Thnx for all the good work!
 
Sorry it's taking so long. I'm actually working on it right now. It's going to be a complete update, the rules and the 40 games or so I have gotten since the last update. I had some problems with the installing the patch also. I'm use to programs knowing where they are installed and selecting that as the directory to update, not picking a generic spot and hoping the game is there. :crazyeyes:

But, I'm up and running and am trying to get the update sent into Thunderfall today. :)
 
More thoughts on the scoring system. :) I know that some will disagree with me - please know that I'm just throwing out my ideas, I know that what I say is opinion, not fact.

It is clear that many players feel that the scoring algorithm is flawed. The overall problem seems to be that the score does not measure skill well, especially when comparing different types of games.

So, before considering how to try to measure it, do we need to define skill in this game? I suspect that people with different styles of play will define skill differently, and thus will lean toward different scoring systems to measure what they feel is skill.

To my mind higher skill implies an ability to simultaneously use many of the game's facets (units, improvements, resources, tech, culture, diplomacy, etc, etc.) well, to produce a desired outcome.

Any definition like that would seem to rule out fast conquest. If a game can be won so soon that much of the tech. tree hasn't been researched, then that game did not require skillful use of many of the city improvements, unit types, long-term diplomacy, governments, etc. (That game never got to them at all.) So that game is only measuring skill in a subset of the game's rich features. One might enjoy such games and be extremely skillful in using that subset, but it still does not seem as great a test of skill as a test which requires skillful use of a greater range of the game.

So it makes sense to me to eliminate the smaller map sizes. In a general sense, to eliminate games which don't require an application of skill throughout the longer timeline available in the game. (So far, that seems to apply only to small maps, and/or maps with few opponents, and perhaps maps at lower difficulty levels.)

Continuing in the same vein is the question: Does an earlier victory for a given victory condition imply greater skill? Suppose one player wins a game with conquest in 1800AD, with a scattered Civ with many small cities which have been heavily pop rushed, and with little culture. A second player wins the same game in 1850AD with a large happy populace and high culture. Which of these took more skill? A very tough question.

Before rushing to any scoring modification which strongly favors earlier wins I think the previous question should be considered at length. In my opinion the second case in that example probably took more skill. It required a more delicate balancing of more of the game's factors and was a harder goal to acheive. (If indeed one considers it a desirable goal, which is of course part of the problem in this discussion, defining the goals by which skill will be measured.)

If one agrees that the second case took as much skill, the big problem is how can it be measured? I don't have a solution to that. But, I do want to suggest that perhaps the existing scoring system isn't all that bad for the moment.

The two games I described earlier (1800 vs 1850) will be closer in final score after milking than they were in conquest date - the first case has more time available to milk, but is behind in averaged-over-the-years score at that date. The second case has a real chance to win in final score. So, to my mind, the existing scoring system, with its favoring of milking games, does after all have some inherent goodness. Earlier control of the world is favored in one way (more time to milk) but more early building can offset that and might produce a higher score. A subtle tradeoff which at least to some degree can measure skill.

I think that the best tests of skill will be games which can't be won by skilled players until late in in the Industrial Age or later. Given a game which is a challenge up to that point, I don't personally have a problem with milking it. By the time it is "in hand", the game probably has 150 or less turns left to 2050. I imagine that many people invest 40 hours or more in getting a tough game to that point. Spending another 10 or so milking it is not that big a deal to me.

And there is (in my opinion, I know some strongly disagree) some skill and interest in milking efficiently. You need to consider it even before the "in hand" date, anticipating that your average per turn score over the long haul will matter. You need to trade off more towns with faster growth and less unhappiness vs. maximum size towns which use up tiles themselves. You need to optimize build paths vs money available, spending on happiness now vs. happiness later. And so on. It isn't as complex as war and it isn't random, but it isn't trivial either.

One possible cure for the scoring problem is to emphasize date but separately rank the earliest win of each type (conquest, spacerace, etc.) Theoretically that would let us emphasize and work on the different areas of skill in the game. But I'm not convinced that it would actually help. It has a few problems. 1) How do we compare the different types? I think that people inevitably will want to compare them, they'll want THE high score however that is defined. 2) How to balance the types? That would take some careful thinking and might end up imbalanced anyway. 3) Once balanced, would people like the result? I suspect that most high level players LIKE the warfare aspect. And warfare is such a complex part of the game that any game which largely excludes it probably doesn't require as much skill. I'd be rather unhappy if I played a dynamite game, putting 100 hours into a large map with 16 civs and starting on tundra, finally beating down every other Civ by 2000AD, and then someone beat me by playing an easy "builder" type game from the same start to a 1500AD diplomatic victory. I would strongly feel that beating all other Civs into submission had required more skill. :) I suspect that any good scoring must most reward a game which includes a significant element of war and conquest. If a scoring system doesn't require that for THE high score, then many existing players (including me) would feel that it must be a flawed scoring system in some way and we'd be back to discussing what's wrong with the scoring system.

In summary: From my perspective the existing scoring system is, although flawed, not all that bad for measuring skill. I would not want to see it replaced with something which might be worse by favoring early conquest even more than it already is - I think that might only create an increased and undesirable focus on skillful blood-letting (and pop rushing) at the cost of other game factors.
 
Continuing in the same vein is the question: Does an earlier victory for a given victory condition imply greater skill? Suppose one player wins a game with conquest in 1800AD, with a scattered Civ with many small cities which have been heavily pop rushed, and with little culture. A second player wins the same game in 1850AD with a large happy populace and high culture. Which of these took more skill? A very tough question.
I think the scoring system takes this into account already. The higher population and culture would goven more points and be adjusted by the fact that it happened later in the game.

The main flaw I see in the scoring system is the huge point bonus given to a quick victory no matter what the conditions. A conquest game with 80% water and 1 other civ should not govern the same score as a 50% water with 4 other civs game.
In summary: From my perspective the existing scoring system is, although flawed, not all that bad for measuring skill. I would not want to see it replaced with something which might be worse by favoring early conquest even more than it already is - I think that might only create an increased and undesirable focus on skillful blood-letting (and pop rushing) at the cost of other game factors.
I agree and that is why I have eliminated Tiny and Small maps as a means to eliminate the quick conquest games that don't seem to measure much. It seems the scoring system levels out a bit better once the game starts to develop, so we have to do things that encourage somewhat longer game play (i.e. minimum number of Civs to play against).
 
Looks like the board is not updated???
I have submitted two games, but not heard anything. I assume they went to the right place....
I am obviously not the master of this game, but they are respectable wins...:D
 
I got done with the update around Midnight last night and tried to e-mail it to Thunderfall, but my SMTP server rejected the file because it was too big (8.3 MB). So I had to wait until I got home tonight and break it into two smaller pieces. Anyway, they are sent over now so as soon as Thunderfall gets some time it will be updated.

The Listing only has games that were played on Standard Map sizes or larger. I made a separate listing for all the Tiny and Small maps to recognize all the effort that people had put into them, but those do not include the saved game files. No more games will be added to the Tiny and Small list.

Please also note the rule changes for type of games accepted as well as information that is requested. I have not had the time to check every game to get the missing information so there is still no reference to the tribe played or year the game ended. I hope to get that portion caught up on with the next update.

Give it a little while and then check out The Updated Civ 3 HOF Page. Just be sure to have your pop-up stopper installed first because it is on the server that the ads appear on. :(

On a similar note, I cannot reply directly to e-mails that are sent to me right now. Thunderfall is working on the problem and hopefully that will be fixed soon.
 
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