Civ3 High Score Hall of Fame

Originally posted by Aeson
I have been playing a game to submit to the HOF for a couple of weeks now without reloading. It really didn't make a difference up to now anyways, as the sheer size and scope of the game ...
Oh oh, this is scary! I've been working on a huge deity game for the past couple of weeks. We might be working on the same thing :). I've been doing it without reloads too. But it would be great to test the domination limit on this map, I'm really glad to be able to make that exception, it has been a constant worry!
 
Aeson, Sirpleb,

Just being curious, you say you are playing now for a couple of weeks? Wow! How much time you spend each day and what kind of strategy? My impression is that Deity on a huge map takes a lot of time, if you can give some indication......
 
Well, first of all the game I've been playing is on Emperor, so no worries SirPleb. I had started a comparable game on Deity, but back before the # of Civs was finalized, so I hadn't used the required 8 AI. I may eventually play a Deity one through with 8AI, though it would be a few weeks before I could really even start! ;)

I was just using this Emperor game to test some Impi resource denial strategies, and ended up with almost the perfect start, so continued playing. As it turned out, the only other Expansionist Civ was the Americans, and they were on a seperate landmass. It is a Huge/Pangaea/8AI map, but the Americans and Aztecs had about 1/5th of the landmass off on their own continent.

These types of games take 100's of hours to play, I'm at 1450AD, and just waiting for my automated workers to finish each turn takes close to 10 minutes on a 1.33GHz/512MB RAM machine (all animations and moves turned off). I have finished the conquest at least, which took a long time as I had well over 400 military units most of the time. If I had known we could reload to determine the domination point sooner, it probably would have made about 2-5k difference in the final score, but oh well. I had really cut expansion short, just to be safe. I would say I've played about 150-200 hours into it already, though a lot of that was because I didn't start automating workers until about 500AD. The terrain and city improvements left to do will easily eat up another 50 hours. Then it should fly by.

I usually play about a half hour to an hour, then switch to another game. Even had to take breaks during some turns as they were so long, mostly before I started automating the workers. On a side note, I certainly have learned a lot about Zulu/African culture and mythology from looking up references for city name ideas! No "New" or numbered cities for me :)

As far as the strategy, just massive settler expansion to about 40 cities and tons of scouts getting huts for the first bit. I was able to outpace the AI expansion because of a settler from a hut about 20 turns in. On Deity, that would never happen, even with 2+ settlers. Because I had more cities, I was able to renegotiate peace treaties with the AI Civs, demanding 1 or 2 cities every 20 turns. My first 30 or so "conquests" came that way. Those cities did the pop rushing of Impies while my core expanded peacefully. A couple of those cities had nearby Iron, and they just rushed out Swordsmen. I also set up temporary Horsemen pop rushing camps next to several bonus food sources which could rush a unit every other turn. By 500BC I had begun the conquest, though just tenatively. Around the end of the BC's I had built up to about 100 each of Impi and Horsemen, and let loose the flood gates.

It was constant war until 1200AD from that point on, usually producing about 20 units every turn, and maintaining a unit count of 450-800 not counting the 200+ captured workers. Just to put how many battles were involved each turn into perspective, I got a leader every single turn that I didn't already have one active from 300AD till 1200AD. "Mpande" made his appearance 8 times, accompanied by several other leaders who's names excape me. I now completely disbelieve any claims to having 2 active leaders at the same time, at least post-patch. Now the French are stuck on the island I dubbed "Madagascar", surrounded by privateers and Frigates, while I figure out just how many cities I can build.

The screenshot attached is after I had disbanded 150 Knights and 200 Impies, the rest are mostly workers. It also doesn't include any of the captured workers. Madigascar is on the lower left/right, just at the edge of the screen.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I'm really glad to be able to make that exception, it has been a constant worry!

Exactly, I know that trying to get a game to 'perfection' needs to be tinkered with, so it would be absurd to say that no reloading is possible. However, as I said, if I feel that the game has been constantly reloaded at every turn or combat, then I may bring it up for discussion in this thread and let everyone decide if they agree. If they do, it will be removed.

BTW, Thunderfall may be un'sticky'ing this thread in the near future, so it may drop down the list very quickly with how many posts all the other threads get. So, you can do like I did and bookmark this thread so that no matter where it is on the list, you can get to it quickly. :)
 
I'm processing the games for the HOF right now and the HOF has now reached the point where people are being bumped off the HOF listing. We have 14 games for Monarch and 12 for Regent, so that makes the first 6 casualties for the HOF.

Reminder: Be sure to include all the need info with your submission. If you do not have at least your level and score in the e-mail, your game will not be processed at all. If your submission is missing any of the other info it's processing and subsequent addition (maybe ;)) to the HOF will be delayed. Missing information is the main reason for delays in updates to the HOF. :(
 
I'm working on a huge deity 15 rival six-way win. It has been very tense until yesterday, touch and go whether I could do it up to then. I really don't want to think how many hours goes into one of these. Something between 100 and 200 so far I guess, I truly don't want to dig deeply into that :)

For this one I unabashedly pop rushed. I started by building 8 cities and I rushed 7 of them unmercifully as I launched my first attack. And kept rushing them into my second attack. And then added another 7 cities in a second slave camp and started rushing them too. And even then I was behind in power and tech for quite a while. And behind in culture for longer. Even after I got a lead in power it was not clear for a long time whether I would be able to isolate a "friend" Civ (for the diplomatic win), and get UN first, and clean everyone else off the map. I'm at 1600AD now, with 4 rivals and 1 friend remaining, none of them strong. Around 1500AD was when I felt the game was in hand. We were just reaching the end of the Industrial Age then, with 6 rivals left in the game. I was in Despotism until 600AD and have been in Monarchy most of the time since, haven't shifted to Democracy yet. Have had few times since the initial buildup where I haven't been at war with at least one rival.

Diplomacy has perhaps been the most challenging aspect in this game. It has been quite tricky trying to have just the wars I want to have. Hasn't always worked by a long shot. Diplomacy is surprisingly interesting and challenging when there are so many Civs involved.

I'm on a 1Ghz machine. The AI's turns were taking perhaps five minutes at the heaviest stage. I didn't time them but the automated part of my turn (the automated workers) were slower again, taking something definitely longer than five minutes at the heaviest stage. My time per turn has been quite variable. In the most intense phases of the game I probably spent over an hour per turn. I've had most of the workers on shift-A automation for a long time now, they got to be much too much work to manage.

I had the same experience regarding Great Leaders. With hundreds of units active (at this point over 500 workers + military, plus another few hundred captured workers), whenever I use up my current Great Leader it is at most one turn later that I get the next one, usually the same turn. I haven't had a huge number though - I saved each for the next wonder I wanted. And I had the same experience Aeson, never ever had a second one show up till I used the saved one. I don't believe in two at the same time now, if it were possible I should have seen it in this game.

It is hard to be sure from the screenshot Aeson, but it looks like you've used a remarkably regular/planned build pattern for your cities. I'm looking forward to seeing the final result!
 
Aeson, SirPleb,

Thnx for the quick response, it is impressive, Wow! Looking forward for the final result as well. The dynamic gameply sounds very attractive, yet the time needed makes me reluctant to dive in to it!

Probably needless to ask, but you let the AI do scientific development? Aeson, how come your city pattern is so rigid?

Thnx and good luck!
 
15AI is quite an undertaking on Deity SirPleb, I'm impressed that you've made it so far! My experience in games of that type is that it takes a lot of work to keep the AI from expanding even while you are conquering their territory. One of the AI will always resettle any land that opens up, and even the AI you are fighting can still expand at the same time if there is room. I think the top "bloated" scores for Monarch, Emperor, and Deity will be about on the same level, as the lower difficulty levels allow for quicker territory aquisition, while not getting quite as good of a score modifier (Monarch 4, Emperor 5, Deity 6). Anything lower than Monarch though, and the AI won't be able to help expansion by providing captured workers and cities quickly enough.

Because of the settings on my game, I was always ahead in tech. I got every Ancient Era tech from huts (was able to pop about 75 of them), except a couple I traded for. By the time the Americans and Aztecs had caught up, they were facing my Knights, and huge stacks of Impies had already cut off their Iron supplies. Somehow the Americans had Iron for at least 1 turn once they had Chivalry though, because they did end up with a lot of Knights. Thats ok because the conquest was really boring up till that point. It also didn't matter how fast I could take them out as my army was already built, and I couldn't claim their cities due to domination anyways.

The city spacing pattern was my initial idea of how to best determine domination. I didn't want to have to count all the land tiles on the map, just the ones I hadn't claimed. By having each city claim the same number of tiles (every city has 2 shared tiles with other cities, no wasted tiles in the pattern, basically claiming 20 tiles each) I could quickly add up the number of tiles in my empire. The pattern is able to be shifted along the more east-west lines, which is why the north-south lines aren't quite straight. There were only 3 cities sites so far that didn't fit because of mountains, though a lot of smaller coastal areas messed things up a bit. Of course the realization that reloading wasn't completely forbidden rendered this superflous, but it appeals to my obsessive compulsive nature ;) A closer spacing pattern would have yeilded more points, as my first 7 citizens are always happy. A few discontents sneak in after that since I can't build cathedrals, colloseums, or temples as I would have hit the culture wall much too soon. I build a temple in each new city until it expands the borders, then sell it off.

Just wondering... score is all that matters here, it doesn't have to be a victory to be accepted right? I just want to make sure before I go ahead with my planned ending...
 
What I was thinking of was just building the UN at the proper time to have a vote at 2050 (vote comes every 11 years). Then voting for the French so that I lose... would be kinda funny don't you think? Perhaps giving all my cities to the French as well as a gift, and disbanding my final city (and the resulting settler) for a conquest defeat in 2049 ;)
 
Yes indeed Aeson! The AIs have been quite aggressive about resettling any hole I make in the map. :) With the first 5 rivals I attacked, I captured all cities instead of razing. I was putting all resources toward other things, didn't divert any to bringing settlers with the army. I expected (and got) a fair bit of culture flipping back to the AI but figured it was cheaper to just re-take them later. It was however painful to see cities inside and at my borders flip back to an opponent while I was at peace with them. Later in the game I razed and resettled, trying as much as possible to fill in conquered territory before any rival could. In the very late stages it has been a bit challenging due to the Domination threshold. To some degree I've just lived with the rivals filling in the new space, taking them again later. I reduced the problem a lot by disbanding cities in some of my central regions, then settling in the newly conquered areas. Other Civs sometimes send settlers to my disbanded areas but this approach creates a nice time delay between the two events, and it is easy to weed them out again later.

It is neat to realize that even at this flat-out high end of play, very different strategies can still work! My tech approach was pretty much the opposite! I started out thinking that I didn't have a hope of keeping up in tech, with 15 AI Civs researching much faster and trading among themselves. So I planned based on that, on being behind for much of the game. At the start I kept research at 100%. I'm playing the Aztecs so I started with Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. I researched Pottery, The Wheel, and Horseback Riding as quickly as possible. I met the English early enough to trade one tech with them (I got Masonry I think, don't remember. It didn't help my primary focus.) I didn't get any tech from huts because I didn't do a lot of exploring. I planned to get my first bit of catchup in tech in exchange for peace after a war. I kept research at the maximum in order to learn "blocking" techs, the key one being Writing. (When I exchange peace for techs, I'll want as many techs as possible. If I don't have Writing, the other Civ can't put the four subsequent techs on the bargaining table even if they have them. And I was far enough behind that they would have those four by the time I bargained for peace.) After this opening phase (catching up a bit in exchange for peace) I started buying tech. In general I decided it would be ok to lag far behind in tech. So when I bought "old" techs from my weakest rivals (why feed the coffers of the strong ones?) I got discount prices. Eventually the combination of getting techs for peace and buying techs (sometimes played together - just before giving peace to Civ#1, I would buy a "blocking" tech from Civ#2, then get an almost state-of-the-art tech from Civ#1 for peace) got me nearly up to date in tech. I would occasionally buy a bleeding edge tech from someone when I really wanted it. (E.g. Invention. I bought this and Chivalry from rivals as soon as both were available. I then built Leonardo's with a Great Leader. First time I ever built this wonder. It paid for itself immediately by reducing my Horseman upgrade cost by about 4,000 gold.) I also occasionally tech-brokered for a bunch of cash. I did not do much of this, did it 3 or 4 times. It is a great money maker but I did not want to make key techs available to the world at large, and in general I did not want to speed the rate of research in the game. It was going to be a rush all the way, to get control of the game before anyone could get the UN (or horrors, perhaps even a space race.) If I tech brokered much, all that would happen a lot sooner. Finally, in the Industrial Age, I put a big boost into researching Scientific Method before anyone else and built Theory of Evolution. (A wonder I generally have not put a big emphasis on. In this game it really mattered.) I built a cash reserve and just before building Theory of Evolution I bought/traded for all known techs (I'd skipped some) from other Civs. So Theory of Evolution gave me a two tech jump and I was finally the tech leader. After that I stayed on top with a 90% research rate. That resulted in a massive tank launch via airports (I'd established a "beachhead" city on every landmass but one in the world by this time, planning on airport based mobility.) That finally brought the game under control - I'm now able to easily target the remaining rivals.

I'm hoping to at least break 30,000 in score. It is hard to tell yet what the score will be. I'm a bit past 15,000 at 1700AD. The score will be affected a lot by the Domination threshold. I too may have lost a couple of thousand by not pushing it earlier. Now that we're agreed it is ok to test the threshold I've started settling more. Have settled a surprising amount of additional land without hitting the threshold yet.

I must confess that this was not my first try. I generated perhaps 10 random huge deity maps before this one. Two of them I played to about 1000BC before deciding I couldn't make it to all wins. (In one of them I just plain got beat up and couldn't recover. The other I did not get horses soon enough to have a chance.) The rest I rejected right at the start. Maybe that's cheating. I'm not ironman enough to think I could do this with any random start. I figured that on any map with a tundra type of start, or without any bonus tile of any sort visible, I didn't have much hope. I did reject one random start because it was too good - it had the settler on a flood plain with 2 wheats on flood plain across the river from it. That just seemed too easy for a game which would heavily use pop rushing.

Aeson, that sure is a funny idea, losing by diplomatic or even conquest! :)
 
I usually play at Emperor, and I recently started my own Deity game on a Huge map with 8 Civs. Both times I had no horses within miles, and I was playing China (Indoustrois must ROCK on huge maps, and Militaristic is always good...). And both times I never came to the stage were I needed to Pop-Rush, It just made my cities worse, I could actually produce an archer every 4th turn in 4-6 cities and a Settler every 4-6 turn in 3 cities, without Pop Rushing.

Questions to the 2 Deity-Rockers Aeson and Sir-Pleb:

When do you pop rush?
How fast must the city grow to be a good pop rusher?
How many citizens should the city have?
Do you ever waste more then 1 citizen by poprushing?


And about the Tech-Race on the Higher difficulties. I always go for the Great Library, I build it in a River-City with improvements concentrating on Mines, I always build start building a Palace when I'm about to get Writing, then I start Literature and I almost always gets it. Then I lower my tech research to 10% and sometimes 0% when I now I won't get the tech before the comp.

Well, I've currently gave up on Huge-Deity, and will play Huge-Emperor instead...

Locking forward to any tips from you!
 
For whomever is getting concerned about lack of conversation topics for the HOF here are two good ones:

1. The multi.sav feature, allowing to go in God mode and learn all of the map, resources, civ locations and even modify AI city production! It is obvious that this is not allowed for HOF entries, how can it be verified? Just did some playtesting: renamed an existing save to ..............multi...........sav and loaded. Then went end of turn and loaded the new autosav both without and with exiting the Civ program. In both cases the saved game contains information that the feature was used, i.e. you can still go into AI cities. Provisional conclusion: if an attempt is made to change production by using multi.sav that info is kept in the .sav files, no matter the filename given later. It is still possible however that a player renames a .sav game, looks what is going on, and uses an original file to continue play. Anyone to confirm / challenge the above?

2. 1.17f is announced! I would assume that new submissions should be played on that patch level, even if the contents are not yet clear. How to handle the powerplayers that are working on their submissions right now? IMHO they should be given some time, i.e. another 3 or 4 weeks.
 
Originally posted by Beammeuppy
1. The multi.sav feature, allowing to go in God mode and learn all of the map, resources, civ locations and even modify AI city production! It is obvious that this is not allowed for HOF entries, how can it be verified? Just did some playtesting: renamed an existing save to ..............multi...........sav and loaded. Then went end of turn and loaded the new autosav both without and with exiting the Civ program. In both cases the saved game contains information that the feature was used, i.e. you can still go into AI cities. Provisional conclusion: if an attempt is made to change production by using multi.sav that info is kept in the .sav files, no matter the filename given later. It is still possible however that a player renames a .sav game, looks what is going on, and uses an original file to continue play. Anyone to confirm / challenge the above?
Some people have some ideas on spotting the use of this. Plus, we will see how 1.17f address' it also.

2. 1.17f is announced! I would assume that new submissions should be played on that patch level, even if the contents are not yet clear. How to handle the powerplayers that are working on their submissions right now? IMHO they should be given some time, i.e. another 3 or 4 weeks.
Yes, the older version will be phased out. I will allow a decent amount of time before making it a 'requirement'. :)
 
1. The multi.sav feature shouldn't make too much of a difference in players scores. If it is used for actually altering gameplay, then it's easy to tell that it was used, and the game can be rejected. If it is just used to see what is going on, that information would be available in most cases anyways, using some form of espionage and reloading. It probably is possible to hex edit the save file after the god mode has been used, switching it back to normal. Anyone who can do this could also change the score directly anyways, so its not introducing any new problems.

2. Not knowing what the patch is going to change makes this difficult to address. Going from version 1.16 to 1.17 seems to suggest that there won't be any big changes, just some bug fixes and a few tweaks perhaps. Unless pop-rushing is changed or something like that, it shouldn't make any difference towards the HOF submission. In the case that drastic changes are made in this or a future patch, maybe a whole new HOF should be created, and just Archive (no new submissions after a grace period) the current one. Firaxis probably will change pop rushing at least somewhat in the future, and to compare scores before and after wouldn't be fair as it makes such a huge difference.
 
Assuming that Firaxis will go through some sort of testing scheme it is not very likely that a very recent discovery like multi.sav will be in the new patch.......

Oops, off-topic?

Duke,

What you mean with "some people have some ideas"?
 
Originally posted by Beammeuppy
Assuming that Firaxis will go through some sort of testing scheme it is not very likely that a very recent discovery like multi.sav will be in the new patch.......
It has been confirmed that the patch will NOT address the 'Multi cheat'. I was hoping they had known about it on their own and fixed it quickly. :rolleyes:


What you mean with "some people have some ideas"?
Shhh, it's a secret. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;)
 
Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Shhh, it's a secret. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;)

Well, KLM offers direct flights from both LA and Frisco to Amsterdam, my coordinates come with the Avatar, we have a good selection of girls and beer, Civ is installed here.

What is the issue?
 
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