Civ3's Golden Age has begun

[Spacer One]

but are we all quite sure there are no new features or extras??? I mean what purpose could releasing the same 3-4 games have?...unless they put something in there for us modders it will be exactly like the Diablo2 "Power Pack"(or whatever they called the big box they put diablo 1 & 2 in)...a dead sale...

Ive watched the CIV4 boxes sit on the shelves at the 2 computer stores I frequent...and dont expect them to go anywhere...I dont see how releasing outdated versions of a game that isnt selling is going to help...

@Firaxis (Or whoever owns Civ3) you have hit a pinnacle...Civ 4 is a step down...you should do something to revive this great title, and stop flushing money on flashy garbage(civ IV)(ok not flushing, but not raking in the dough either)

I only wonder where the Civ 4 sales compare to other games of the same release dates...I would think...not so good

 

[El Justo]

but are we all quite sure there are no new features or extras??? I mean what purpose could releasing the same 3-4 games have?...unless they put something in there for us modders it will be exactly like the Diablo2 "Power Pack"(or whatever they called the big box they put diablo 1 & 2 in)...a dead sale...

Ive watched the CIV4 boxes sit on the shelves at the 2 computer stores I frequent...and dont expect them to go anywhere...I dont see how releasing outdated versions of a game that isnt selling is going to help...

@Firaxis (Or whoever owns Civ3) you have hit a pinnacle...Civ 4 is a step down...you should do something to revive this great title, and stop flushing money on flashy garbage(civ IV)(ok not flushing, but not raking in the dough either)

I only wonder where the Civ 4 sales compare to other games of the same release dates...I would think...not so good

i admire your positive outlook however, i would think that we would probably have been apprised had these programers actually did a fixer-upper on the civ3 code. no?

so imo it's strictly a money grab. and honestly, who wants to play civ1? or even civ2? i know there's still a follwong for these versions and all but come on now...they say that civ3 was released 5+ years ago but those other titles are pushing 10-15 years!

what i think would be aninteresting comparison would be to evaluate civ3 sales for the 12 months or so after its release in comparison to civ4 sales for the same time period. and additionally, the sales for PTW compared to Warlords...

 

[Spacer One]

what i think would be aninteresting comparison would be to evaluate civ3 sales for the 12 months or so after its release in comparison to civ4 sales for the same time period. and additionally, the sales for PTW compared to Warlords...

Agreed...if there was something new...we would know...

and I too would like to see the numbers regarding Civ3 vs Civ4...I bet they paint an obvious picture...from what Ive seen(I have civing friends who only lurk here...several of whom(myself included) bought Civ 4 and either took it back, or leave it sitting while playing Civ 3)...Civ 4 was a bad idea...I dont know about the whole world...but in my small experiance, CIV 4 cant be doing that good...

Whoever owns the code, would do better releasing more updates, than anything for CIV 4...IMO

 

[Mirc]

I agree with Spacer One entirely. They should release more updates, or patches, or other Civ3 products rather than something new for Civ4. They will lose the fans if they do more for civ4 and people buy that new products hoping for something better and are eventually dissapointed. Because they won't do it twice. And if they do, they won't do it three times.

I'm definetely going to support the Civ3 community and modding community if not anything else by words and encouragements. How could I leave it now, when I just started to learn how to do the basics! How could I leave it now, when all the modded things are here, just waiting for me to try them, and when the experience and work of years of the artists led Civ3 to such perfection in graphics and concepts? I, for one, can't. Sometimes I might be busy for a really long period of time, but I won't leave any time soon.

 

[Ozymandias]

Let's face it - Civ4 was an attempt to expand the franchise to appeal to the widest possible audience (aka "lowest common denominator"). Historicity, complexity, and gameplay were all sacrificed for a "sexier" product. Unfortunately, what we wound up with (fellow patriots, forgive me, for this is true) is the equivalent of Euroland at Disneyworld with customers thinking they've experienced the "real thing" and now don't have to "bother" with traveling to Europe. aargh Furthermore, anyone who's followed my posts over the years knows that I don't believe there's ever been a serious commitment to the modding community. We've either wound up with the effectively unsupported menu option approach in Civ3 (flags not working; the so often misleading on-line "Helpless" as I so lovingly call it) or the Let's-throw-the-kitchen-sink-at-them-and-then-let-them-dare-whine approach of Civ4.

One of the many things I personally treasure about this Civ3 modding community is the ingenuity and creativity its members have shown in the proverbial making of lemons into lemonade. Our results speak for themselves in mods, units, graphics, and the creative use of available and mod-able mechanics.

Here's to us.

All Best Wishes,

Oz

 

[Spacer One]

Here Here Oz...Here Here

OT: what the hell is this??? :

 

[T.A JONES]

The releases of Civ3 are as follows

1. Civ3 Tin Box Edition
2. Civ3 Vanilla
3. Civ 3 Play the World
4. Civ3 Game of the Year eddition
5. Civ3 Conquests
6. Civ3 Gold edition
7. Civ 3 Complete

And now 8. LEGACY EDITION
Civ3 was a lisence to print money for these guys. With all those cash grabs already it hard to believe were going to see another one that keeps the exact same game. WHy? cuz the other 2 games can be found in doller bins at Zellers if your lucky. ( paying 70 bucks for 'Windows edition' is not Justified)---thats leave 4 which is the only evidence they won't upgrade CIv3.

Evidence for changes...
A Firaxis guy admitted on the MAin page thread, the only game that would be included in The LEGACY packaged that they had the source code to was Civ'3.( civ4 was released with source code!)
After put on the spot directly after this statement as to any improvments being done to Civ3 this time around, he mysteriously disapeared!! and never returned after dropping by more then a few times before the question was brought up.

Makes me wonder if he was keeping a secret. I mean, if its true what some say, that theres only a few thousand CIv3 players out there, he coudn't be to worried that his anwser would have MUCH of a negative impact on sales. Why didn't he confirm it? "Theres nothing new On CIv3?" what the big deal?. ............Unless, they have a last minute pitch thats desighned to create major stir just days before it hit stores. In that case he would be under a gag order and his avioding a important question that pertains to a major piece of the Package- while anwsering less importamt ones- would make more sence.

 

[Spacer One]

or maybe there was a hint of ambiguity so that "not answering" would be taken as a "yes" and we would get all excited...I hope, but dont expect anything...

as for "the dollar bin" CIV 4 is on discount at Target(big green 25% off stickers)...so I would expect to see it in there as well in 6 months to a year...not a big money maker for the franchise I wouldnt think...

As for 1000 or so Civ players...I hope there are more...I see 1000+ d/ls on some files...assuming every civ player in the world doesnt know about CFC(blasphemy I know)...there have to be more...considering that there are 10000 d/ls on some civ4 files...the audience is still there, they just need something new to draw them back to civ3...

@firaxis (or whoever is releasing Legacy) ARE YOU CRAZY??? UPDATE THE GAME OR DONT BOTHER!!!!!

...this again...:

 

[T.A JONES]

Dam right! the whole idea of them daring to drop the same crap with a card game included, to a completly fresh audience of thousands is so off it can't be ther intention. I listed all those releases to show FIreaxis must know everybody alreadys shelled out there cash for whats been done so far..

Civ4 sales were just exausted and Warlards isn't included in this PAKAGE to shock sales back to life.

Civ1 and 2 are bargin bin priced games you can't expect a 70 dollers shell out for those can you? ... No, so you see why with only that little nugget of evidence I presented I can rationalize for a small bit of hope for a Civ3 upgrade. Theres also those communty made mods that havn't been mentioned by anyone yet.... But trust me my hopes arn't up, no not, with the way things are be'n run with this newly formed MEGA corp

BTW....Corrections/ I meant 10000 or whatever I_Batman said.

 

[Spacer One]

didnt they release an incomplete version (playable but missing graphics) of DYP with Civ3 complete??? whats to say they wont include something as pointless(especially pointless to us modders)???...Im hoping that they have bothered to fix the problems with the editor, and thats all Im hopeful of...any "bonus features" will prolly fall short(seriously...?? a card game??)...if they exsist at all

 

[T.A JONES]

didnt they release an incomplete version (playable but missing graphics) of DYP with Civ3 complete??? whats to say they wont include something as pointless(especially pointless to us modders)???...Im hoping that they have bothered to fix the problems with the editor, and thats all Im hopeful of...any "bonus features" will prolly fall short(seriously...?? a card game??)...if they exsist at all

I mentioned that Mod thing last minute shoudn't have cus it diluted my reasoning but ya they did and it was total bogus, except that tracking dwn the missing files is how I found these forums so it paid off in the long run in terms of content I was able to accuire

No forget that mods Im basing my hopes on the realization that nobody in their right mind can be as greedy as to go after money for the same stuff that many times. If they say Well. we got new content here- its called the Warhammer Mod!!! Nah.... ANyway Heres hoping for a more powerful bic, Thats all we need

 

[vingrjoe]

There is no justification to use fan made content in an expansion. Sure, it may put a feather in the cap of the mod creator, but charging us for content that we can get online for free is crap. I don't want any mods or scenarios with a new release (rerelease, whatever) of Civ3, I want bugs fixed, and an editor that has more horses under the hood.

 

[T.A JONES]

There is no justification to use fan made content in an expansion. Sure, it may put a feather in the cap of the mod creator, but charging us for content that we can get online for free is crap. I don't want any mods or scenarios with a new release (rerelease, whatever) of Civ3, I want bugs fixed, and an editor that has more horses under the hood.

Exactly, Thats what Im wasting to many words trying to express. Civ Complete already did that. So can they really do it again?

Were doomed if they read Civ4 forums. If they see all those devoted 'fans' screaming praise from that heaping pile of candy ass crap they got dumped on em, they will be quick to reason YES!!! we give them card games and dvd's featuring their hero Soreen n now its well worth the money It depends how dumb n fanboyish they think we are as a whole. Do they look here or there.(civ3 or CIv4) Thats what will decide how they play us.

( Ive got nothing agaist the the designer I know he was half of the team that made CIv3 ) just mybe not the better half?

 

[Rocoteh]

On numbers:

Based on download-stats and other stats I say its reasonable
to assume there are still more then 50 000 players of CIV 3 around the world.

New PC wargames will sell in 5000-10 000 units.
However an updated CIV 3 would reach a much larger group then wargamers.

Some months ago Matrix Games bought The Operational Art of Warfare
from Talonsoft. It have now been reworked and republished.
I assure you: TOAW is not for everyone.
Still there is a market for it.

To conclude:

Of course there are still money to make from an updated CIV 3!
Then there can be business-agreements made (not known to the public) that will prohibit a new release.....


Rocoteh

 

[I_batman]

On numbers:

Based on download-stats and other stats I say its reasonable
to assume there are still more then 50 000 players of CIV 3 around the world.

New PC wargames will sell in 5000-10 000 units.
However an updated CIV 3 would reach a much larger group then wargamers.

Some months ago Matrix Games bought The Operational Art of Warfare
from Talonsoft. It have now been reworked and republished.
I assure you: TOAW is not for everyone.
Still there is a market for it.

To conclude:

Of course there are still money to make from an updated CIV 3!
Then there can be business-agreements made (not known to the public) that will prohibit a new release.....

Rocoteh

Rocoteh, are you sure that new games can sell 5,000-10,000 units and still be profitable?

That seems like an awfully low number.
But as I said before and you alluded to, if upgrading Civ III was profitable, it would be done by now.

 

[Ozymandias]

But as I said before and you alluded to, if upgrading Civ III was profitable, it would be done by now.

Not necessarily. Other factors often come into play, such as whether or not a company is properly configured (personnel, organization, funding, strategic goals, et. al.) to turn out a product. Besides, we're also fighting an uphill battle against the perception of what a "new" entry into the computer game market requires -- else why would there be inferior 3d graphics in Civ4?

-Oz

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Yeah, my brother, who is an aspiring Pro 3D graphics artist, noticed this disturbing trend at an expo put on by the art school he went to. There was an animatronic baby that looked almost real (he had to look at it for quite a while to figure out it wasn't), but everyone there ignored it in favor of OOOHing and AAHHing at some crappy 3D animations that my brother could whip out in about 5 seconds, and I could do in 5 minutes or less.

It is my opinion that I could take a nice healthy crap into a computer game box and slap a nice shiney title with the words "BRAND NEW 3D!!!!!!1111one" in the title, it would sell. It's really sad. AoE III was kind of the same way, however, at least the graphics LOOK good (about 10X better than Civ IV, and AOE III Is REAL TIME), and the gameplay actually requires some serious strategy, and the different factions require widely different strategies (I.e. the Russians strategy is based around massing cheap infantry, whereas the Germans have a pretty balanced unit line that's augmented by Free light cavalry with every home city shipment). Point is, I still play AoE II more than I play AoE III (for one thing, AoE II, even with 8 factions on a Gigantic map with a population limit of 250 each won't slow my computer down near as much as AoE III in the late game stages when everyone has massive armies on the go), because I just like the era and gameplay style better.

It is much the same way with Civ IV and Civ III with me, only more so. I haven't seen anything at all that appeals to me with Civ IV (crappy 3D terrain, crappy, single culture group 3D cities and crappy, low polly 3D units, and crappy dumbed-down AI).

 

[I_batman]

Not necessarily. Other factors often come into play, such as whether or not a company is properly configured (personnel, organization, funding, strategic goals, et. al.) to turn out a product. Besides, we're also fighting an uphill battle against the perception of what a "new" entry into the computer game market requires -- else why would there be inferior 3d graphics in Civ4?

-Oz

I agree with you about the other factors coming into play.
And I also agree about the uphill battle re. 3D.
I just think that Take2/Firaxis has made the business decision some time ago they can make more money allocating the business' resources to projects other than an improved Civ III.
And that is that. No amount of wishing will help, unless Take2 is convinced they can make money within the Civ III game engine.

I dislike Civ IV for all the reasons detailed a million times.
But once I am done helping El Justo a little with a couple improved TCW biq's, I am focusing my attention on Civ IV, mainly because the crap game engine that was released by Firaxis, CAN be improved.
Civ IV graphics, ugh, but I have never played Civ for the graphics, even though there are some gorgeous units being pumped out still in Civ III.

And I will be the first one back to Civ III if they ever prove me wrong and release the code or an improved Civ III game engine.

 

[Ozymandias]

I dislike Civ IV for all the reasons detailed a million times.
But once I am done helping El Justo a little with a couple improved TCW biq's, I am focusing my attention on Civ IV, mainly because the crap game engine that was released by Firaxis, CAN be improved.

Ah, but therein lies the rub (he wrote, risking sounding Shakespearian). I actually debated learning / re-learning the 3 languages involved -- until I realized that there is NO INTEGRATION TOOL WHATSOEVER! So incorporating even the simplest script or file change from someone else's works means assuring (1) that there is no contradiction with whatever else you might be modding and (2) that they have taken the same approach you've taken (i.e., chosen the same logic etc. to modify). I've managed many programmers at a time, and of course began that career path managing far less; irrespective, even with just two people working in tandem, it's good and standard practice to coordinate programming efforts far, far more than is currently - or ever will be - possible in Civ4.

Thus endeth the rant of the day. Or hour. Or whatever.

Best,

Oz

 

[Spacer One]

someone should copy-n-paste this thread and mail it to Take2/Firaxis....

Seems like our only hope...otherwise after the horrible sales of Legacy(I assume...am I an ass? or are u??)...that the CIV3 game will lose any chance of update...maybe it would be possible to convince the money grubbers that another CIV 3 expansion would sell...even if they spent 75% less on advertising and distribution...if it is only available online(CIV3 web site) there would be no packaging, no shipping costs..