Civ6 Fallen Empire?

[KaoruT]

So I've been playing Stellaris, and I've found some elements to be quite fun. I understand that it would be ahistorical, but is there a way to spawn an ancient advanced empire that doesn't really care about other empires? Like a very advanced city-state that you can't send envoys to. Does anyone one know of any mod or any way to mod this?

 

[Sostratus]

In Stellaris, the Fallen Empires (I'll abbreviate FE) mostly don't interact with the rest of the galaxy unless you really tick them off. For those who are not familiar, stellaris is similar to civ in that the "players" all start at the same level at the same time; but there are a handful of alien civilizations that begin with a small, extremely fortified nation; extremely powerful military; and technology beyond what a player can research on their own even at the end of the tree. Most are staunchly isolationist, some less so, and may ask you to do little quests or give you some help. Towards the end of the game, these FEs may "wake up" and become active on the galactic scene, and potentially start a war with each other and demand the regular players take sides. So they exist as a flavor aspect, as a map piece, and an end game hand grenade that can get thrown in to mix things up.

The starting techs and units would be easy, I mean you can even just do it via firetuner; the hard part is getting them to act in a way that fits what you want. If they are a CS you can't send envoys to, how will they ever get involved? What's the incentive to deal with them? (I could imagine if they had some kind of unique feature or wonder as a boon for conquering them, or special resources or something like suze bonuses for being their buddy.)

If you made a super advanced CS that you could only get envoys to via quests that would be another way to do it. (Even if that means having a table that tracks how many quests each civ has completed with them and the highest civ or X amount gets their bonus or something.) I'm trying to think of how you could have such a faction in the game that you could get to diplomatically not be pointless.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The FE in Stellaris are/is a Science Fantasy/Fiction element which works in the context of a Science Fiction setting. Contrary to Popular Belief, at not t time were there ever Ancient Advanced Civilizations with Superior technology on this planet. Atlantis, to take the one that has probably spawned more bad fiction than any other, was made up by Plato to make political/philosophical points. It was probably based on the Minoan Civilization of Crete, but while that was certainly an advanced civilization for its time, 1000+ years later when Plato was writing, they had better ship building and design, metal-working, architectural, and mechanical technologies than the Minoans ever had.

BUT I can think of three completely Historical situations that would approach the FE game intent, of a semi-random deus ex machina descending on the player Civs to disrupt things.
1. 'Barbarian" or Tribal Migrations. Starting with the Yamnaya in the Ancient Era and of course including the Celtic, Germanic and Scandinavian (Goth) tribes, the Huns, Turks, and other horse-nomads, whenever these people moved for whatever reason, it posed major problems for their 'civilized' neighbors, even those some distance away.
2. The European migration/invasion of the Americas. This is more limited temporally and specially, but to any Native American Civ, the coming of the Europeans pretty closely approximated the FE: advanced technology, required you to take sides in their wars, and in addition brought extreme disruption to your own resources, population and civilization.
3. The case can be made that we are seeing the start or continuation of 'barbarian migrations': only now they are less barbaric than refugees fleeing the effects of climate on their homelands. That's not likely to stop or subside any time soon, so a tweaking of the current "Climate Change" end-game of Civ VI could, perhaps, be used to introduce an FE mechanism to the game.

 

[KaoruT]

In Stellaris, the Fallen Empires (I'll abbreviate FE) mostly don't interact with the rest of the galaxy unless you really tick them off. For those who are not familiar, stellaris is similar to civ in that the "players" all start at the same level at the same time; but there are a handful of alien civilizations that begin with a small, extremely fortified nation; extremely powerful military; and technology beyond what a player can research on their own even at the end of the tree. Most are staunchly isolationist, some less so, and may ask you to do little quests or give you some help. Towards the end of the game, these FEs may "wake up" and become active on the galactic scene, and potentially start a war with each other and demand the regular players take sides. So they exist as a flavor aspect, as a map piece, and an end game hand grenade that can get thrown in to mix things up.

The starting techs and units would be easy, I mean you can even just do it via firetuner; the hard part is getting them to act in a way that fits what you want. If they are a CS you can't send envoys to, how will they ever get involved? What's the incentive to deal with them? (I could imagine if they had some kind of unique feature or wonder as a boon for conquering them, or special resources or something like suze bonuses for being their buddy.)

If you made a super advanced CS that you could only get envoys to via quests that would be another way to do it. (Even if that means having a table that tracks how many quests each civ has completed with them and the highest civ or X amount gets their bonus or something.) I'm trying to think of how you could have such a faction in the game that you could get to diplomatically not be pointless.

Thanks for providing a detailed explanation, yes I understand that there should be some sort of incentive for people to interact with the equivalent of a fallen empire, personally the fact that there's a well-developed city, controlled by someone else is enough for me to want to declare a war eventually. I guess the problem is the fact that from some point in time it's absolutely clear that I am going to win the game without any real challenge and there's not really anything that I am anticipating to happen in the future. A fallen empire could provide a bit of excitement, there's something to fight in the future!

The FE in Stellaris are/is a Science Fantasy/Fiction element which works in the context of a Science Fiction setting. Contrary to Popular Belief, at not t time were there ever Ancient Advanced Civilizations with Superior technology on this planet. Atlantis, to take the one that has probably spawned more bad fiction than any other, was made up by Plato to make political/philosophical points. It was probably based on the Minoan Civilization of Crete, but while that was certainly an advanced civilization for its time, 1000+ years later when Plato was writing, they had better ship building and design, metal-working, architectural, and mechanical technologies than the Minoans ever had.

BUT I can think of three completely Historical situations that would approach the FE game intent, of a semi-random deus ex machina descending on the player Civs to disrupt things.
1. 'Barbarian" or Tribal Migrations. Starting with the Yamnaya in the Ancient Era and of course including the Celtic, Germanic and Scandinavian (Goth) tribes, the Huns, Turks, and other horse-nomads, whenever these people moved for whatever reason, it posed major problems for their 'civilized' neighbors, even those some distance away.
2. The European migration/invasion of the Americas. This is more limited temporally and specially, but to any Native American Civ, the coming of the Europeans pretty closely approximated the FE: advanced technology, required you to take sides in their wars, and in addition brought extreme disruption to your own resources, population and civilization.
3. The case can be made that we are seeing the start or continuation of 'barbarian migrations': only now they are less barbaric than refugees fleeing the effects of climate on their homelands. That's not likely to stop or subside any time soon, so a tweaking of the current "Climate Change" end-game of Civ VI could, perhaps, be used to introduce an FE mechanism to the game.

Well as I said the historical aspect doesn't really matter to me, I mean it's an alternate universe with immortal leaders where history could progress in a much different way. so what if there are advanced ancient civs?
But YES, some sort of crisis that you HAVE to fight? that would be awesome, the current climate change mechanics don't feel like that much of a crisis. but there could be a million things, an epidemic, a barbarian horde, something to make the endgame a little more interesting.

 

[XplosiveLun]

I would like some semi-fictional expansion. It would like this to be toggle-able random events, to spice things up in late game. Much like Stellaris' Mid-game crisis.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well as I said the historical aspect doesn't really matter to me, I mean it's an alternate universe with immortal leaders where history could progress in a much different way. so what if there are advanced ancient civs?
But YES, some sort of crisis that you HAVE to fight? that would be awesome, the current climate change mechanics don't feel like that much of a crisis. but there could be a million things, an epidemic, a barbarian horde, something to make the endgame a little more interesting.

Historical Aspect doesn't really matter?! Sacrilege! Abomination! Well, not really. It is, after all, a game only loosely based on history (damn loose, in places) and, of course, a completely historical game would be unplayable more than once because you'd know exactly what was going to happen every time just by reading a history book.

There are a whole bunch of Recurring Crises that have disastrously affected civilizations throughout history. They have largely been left out of the game because in many cases the Civ in question, in game terms, Lost The Game as a result, and nobody wants to play the kind of game where all your efforts can be wiped out by a 'random' event at almost any time in the game.
But to continue my original list, there are several things that could 'spice up' the End Game:
1. Climate Change, which is moderately modeled now, but doesn't begin to show the real effects, which are in the disruption of Food Sources in the form of fish yields and agriculture. A recent study has placed the cause of a great deal of the 'refugee' (read: Migration) crisis in parts of the world to lack of food back home. In fact, the original cause of the Syrian Civil War was farmers demonstrating because they could no longer make a living from their farms due to weather/climate change and resulting lack of production from their land. Add in those effects, and any game that lasted into the Information Era would present you with some serious problems to solve instead of a few drowned coastal tiles.
2. Extend the game into the Near Future. Here we can take a page from the great but flawed game Test of Time, a Civ variant that was full of really good ideas all very badly expressed in the game. One of them was 'near future' developments - extending the 'Future Tech' to specific technologies and their results. So, for example, Cities in Orbit (L5 Habitats), Cities under the Sea, Cities protected by 'Force Fields', Major Terra-Forming or Terrain Change (the game doesn't even reflect the current historical level of that!). Establishing a percentage of your total population off the planet, for instance, could be a victory condition instead of just sending a single vessel full of colonists.
3. The hoary old Trope of Science Fiction: Alien Invasion. Lions and Tigers and Lizards in Space Suits, Oh My! And, as above, some form of defense that can be cobbled together from existing or future technologies. Read Niven and Pournelle's classic SF novel Footfall for an example of what could be done with this.

Crises that could be added all through the game, in addition to the Migrations and on-going Climate Change events (read Geoffrey Parker's Global Crisis for the effects of Climate Change on Civs across the world in the 17th century CE: puts a whole new face on the various regime changes, wars, and upheavals from Mexico to China to England) would be the other subject that has been debated on these forums since the Black Death/Plague scenario came out: Plague.
Recurring epidemic episodes have had either catastrophic immediate effects (the Bubonic Plague outbreaks in Europe in the late Medieval Era) or on-going 'insidious' effects (the near-continuous Cholera outbreaks every single summer in most European cities up to the mid-19th century, when antisepsis and water purification were finally understood).
Again, they aren't in the regular game because if your Civ happens to be the one in the path of the Bubonic Plague in the 14th century CE, You Are Screwed by a random event, and, as said, nobody likes playing a game of Russian Civ Roulette.

 

[Sostratus]

The hoary old Trope of Science Fiction: Alien Invasion. Lions and Tigers and Lizards in Space Suits, Oh My! And, as above, some form of defense that can be cobbled together from existing or future technologies. Read Niven and Pournelle's classic SF novel Footfall for an example of what could be done with this.

Taking from your first post, this could also just be an "Atlantis" / "Wakanda" faction that starts in a very strong position. It would actually make for quite a fun surprise on terra maps if the new world had such a group, that didn't try to win the game but did have a few personalty flavors, some of which included going after the old world you once you've made contact! (Or landing an invasion to take the old world by surprise! Cue emergency with all players as parties to defeat them!)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Taking from your first post, this could also just be an "Atlantis" / "Wakanda" faction that starts in a very strong position. It would actually make for quite a fun surprise on terra maps if the new world had such a group, that didn't try to win the game but did have a few personalty flavors, some of which included going after the old world you once you've made contact! (Or landing an invasion to take the old world by surprise! Cue emergency with all players as parties to defeat them!)

Once you decide to go with 'Fictional Atlantis" you can go anywhere: so much drivel has been written about Atlantis that you can justify any kind of fantasy Civ from it.
On the other hand, there were some Civs/City States that had access to semi-advanced or dangerous technology or techniques - not as far advanced as the fiction-writers ascribe to Atlantis -but which could be introduced into the game:
1. The Minoan Civilization of Crete apparently had more advanced warships and a more numerous and well-run navy than their neighbors, so much that none of the cities or palaces on Crete had any fortifications - nobody could get to Crete unless they were friendly. So a City State or 'fantasy' Civ that is about one Era ahead of you in warships (actually, sort of like the Barbarians with their Ancient Quadiremes in the game now) and more aggressive with them.
2. Syracuse had access to Archimedes, a one-man Military-Industrial Complex. A City State which, according to the fantastic accounts of the time, can burn your ships and men with focused mirrors, sink ships and crush men with thrown or dropped boulders, etc. That would give both the player and the AI something to think about before they attack a City State if you don't know when and where 'Archimedes' will show up!
3. I read one archeologist/historian's thesis which supposed that one aspect of the Huns was that they used an asymmetrical, more powerful composite bow than other pastoral groups, so that they could outrange and penetrate armor of their enemies. An enemy who generates Horse Archers with Range 2 and +10 Ranged Strength and is aggressive (Barbarians or City State) could be another really bad surprise for some Classical Era Civ in the game.
4. Ninjas, Hashishimii, Shaolin, and all the other 'stealth' troops of history: a City State which can generate a Unit that removes other Great People on contact.
5. "Death or Glory". The most extreme of the historical military: the Contraries of the plains indians, Spartan Knights of Classical Era, Companions of the Germanic Tribes or various Sworn to Death bodyguards of groups as different as Medieval Scandinavia and India - a unit that not only always fights as if Full Strength, it automatically keeps attacking in the same turn until either it or its opponent is Destroyed. Could come from a City State, Barbarians, or a Civ with a peculiar Military Civic. Think of it as a Kamikaze Cruise Missile on feet.
6. Wonder Weapons. Most of these weren't really that Wonderful, but there are 'peculiar' weapons that potentially could (and sometimes did) have an out-sized effect on their enemies.
A) Greek Fire. Used by 'flamethrower troops' on land or devices on ships. never very effective on land, but hat could be 'tweaked' for the game.
B) Gunpowder/Fireworks. Could have been invented centuries earlier, since the ingredients were all available and used since Classical Era at least.
C) Poison Gas. Had an absolutely terrifying effect when it was first used, and still counts as a Terror Weapon. Definitely an outsized effect.
D) Elephants. To troops that weren't used to them, had a massive psychological effect. Also, no cavalry could get their horses to go near them.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

I would like to see an official mythology variant to the Civ formula. I know there are a bunch of mods out there that already add mythological civs in but I would like to see how the devs tackle it.

 

[AsH2]

Historical Aspect doesn't really matter?! Sacrilege! Abomination! Well, not really. It is, after all, a game only loosely based on history (damn loose, in places) and, of course, a completely historical game would be unplayable more than once because you'd know exactly what was going to happen every time just by reading a history book.

There are a whole bunch of Recurring Crises that have disastrously affected civilizations throughout history. They have largely been left out of the game because in many cases the Civ in question, in game terms, Lost The Game as a result, and nobody wants to play the kind of game where all your efforts can be wiped out by a 'random' event at almost any time in the game.
But to continue my original list, there are several things that could 'spice up' the End Game:
1. Climate Change, which is moderately modeled now, but doesn't begin to show the real effects, which are in the disruption of Food Sources in the form of fish yields and agriculture. A recent study has placed the cause of a great deal of the 'refugee' (read: Migration) crisis in parts of the world to lack of food back home. In fact, the original cause of the Syrian Civil War was farmers demonstrating because they could no longer make a living from their farms due to weather/climate change and resulting lack of production from their land. Add in those effects, and any game that lasted into the Information Era would present you with some serious problems to solve instead of a few drowned coastal tiles.
2. Extend the game into the Near Future. Here we can take a page from the great but flawed game Test of Time, a Civ variant that was full of really good ideas all very badly expressed in the game. One of them was 'near future' developments - extending the 'Future Tech' to specific technologies and their results. So, for example, Cities in Orbit (L5 Habitats), Cities under the Sea, Cities protected by 'Force Fields', Major Terra-Forming or Terrain Change (the game doesn't even reflect the current historical level of that!). Establishing a percentage of your total population off the planet, for instance, could be a victory condition instead of just sending a single vessel full of colonists.
3. The hoary old Trope of Science Fiction: Alien Invasion. Lions and Tigers and Lizards in Space Suits, Oh My! And, as above, some form of defense that can be cobbled together from existing or future technologies. Read Niven and Pournelle's classic SF novel Footfall for an example of what could be done with this.

Crises that could be added all through the game, in addition to the Migrations and on-going Climate Change events (read Geoffrey Parker's Global Crisis for the effects of Climate Change on Civs across the world in the 17th century CE: puts a whole new face on the various regime changes, wars, and upheavals from Mexico to China to England) would be the other subject that has been debated on these forums since the Black Death/Plague scenario came out: Plague.
Recurring epidemic episodes have had either catastrophic immediate effects (the Bubonic Plague outbreaks in Europe in the late Medieval Era) or on-going 'insidious' effects (the near-continuous Cholera outbreaks every single summer in most European cities up to the mid-19th century, when antisepsis and water purification were finally understood).
Again, they aren't in the regular game because if your Civ happens to be the one in the path of the Bubonic Plague in the 14th century CE, You Are Screwed by a random event, and, as said, nobody likes playing a game of Russian Civ Roulette.

To add some crisis..
Earthquakes and comet impact.

Also, a revamp of the District system as you've suggested (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/districts-becoming-obsolete.647178/#post-15496715) would both slow down progress to and then kick-off an intense late-game (as requested here).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To add some crisis..
Earthquakes and comet impact.

Comet Impact is covered quite nicely (and with as much scientific accuracy as they could get) by Niven and Pournelle's Science Fiction novel Lucifer's Hammer.

The problem I see with introducing earthquakes as another 'Natural Disaster' is the same one we've got with Hurricanes right now: there is no upside to it. Floods, Volcanic eruptions, even if they mess up your Improvements, you get increased Yields afterwards to compensate. From an earthquake all you get is quick and over-enthusiastic Urban Renewal. Come to think of it, a sufficiently massive earthquake might be a mechanism to allow you to get rid of a District and replace it with another type.

The other problem with earthquakes is that the damage they do comes from several different sources and isn't exactly the same in effect. Sufficiently massive, and the earthquake can change the terrain forms and the course of rivers. Otherwise, in the countryside it does minimal damage. In cities, the most common and widespread destruction is caused by fires started by buildings collapsing onto fires, hearths, and fireplaces or (later) ruptured gas mains. These fires, especially in pre-modern cities built mostly of wood, can be catastrophic: 220,000 dead in the great earthquake/fire that hit Tokyo in the 1920s.
In coastal cities, which are already considered somewhat overburdened by Disasters, an off-shore earthquake can cause a Tsunami that can also be catastrophic: the modern disaster that killed over 30,000 in Japan, for example, but also the Tsunami and fires that hit Lisbon in the 1750s from an earthquake that virtually leveled the city. Does anyone want another Natural Disaster that reduces city population by 33 - 50% AND destroys all the buildings in the city and its Districts?