Civics balance thoughts (post-BtS)

[Norbert]

Sorry if this is in the wrong board...but these would be my thoughts on ideal civics balance, post-BtS...without adding any civics...(I'm thinking of posting on that, also...)

1) This really dosen't directly have to do with civics, but it affects them indirectly: fix Corporations. Namely, lower their upkeep to a reasonable, but impacting, level, make it so foreign corps have the current upkeep levels in your cities, but no upkeep for their founders PLUS they get the gold bonus for their founders granted by the corporate headquarters.

2) Currently, Government seems like the most balanced category to me...BUT....

Hereditary Rule needs some motivation to stay in other than diplomatic, after

the pyramids are built. I suggest lowered upkeep or +1 military exp. from

castles. Maybe even a return to Medium upkeep in combination, if that's OP.

Meanwhile, PS is undeniably weak, and solution is not lowering it's upkeep.

The civilopedia wrongly states that there is a espianoge bonus: this fits with

the flavor of the civic, and would be a nice buff. In Fact, I think Hereditary

rule should be: +1 , +1 exp. from Castles, +1 or 2 from walls, -25 or 50%

WW (glory and honor for fighting for the king) while PS should have +1 for

each unit in city, +50% Esp., +25% unit production.

3) Simply put: who's going to use anything but Free Speech or Vassalage

unless your empire is small and you're going for a Bueracratic Space Race?

Put Bueracracy back at medium, it wasn't overpowered, and put Free Speech

at high. Then, frankly, remove the free units from Vassalage: the exp. is

powerful enough, and the fact that it has synergy with Pacifism is silly. This

would enable Nationhood balance amidst the other Legals.

4) Come to think about it, I use the Labors equally, depending of victory tried for...if you have any suggestions for better balance here, speak up.

5) I think the above change to corps would make mercantilism and Free

Market viable civics again...Environmentalism too. Honestly, remove the food

bonus from SP or something...it needs to not be THE CIVIC. I understand this

is a Sid Meier game, but someone needs to tell him countries don't magically

become much more powerful by transferring ownership of property to the

State...despite what Marx would have you believe. (and even if it did, this is

a game, not a history simulator.)

6) My only suggestion as far as religion goes is to make it so Theocracy allows

the spread of non-state religions, but disallows temples and cathedrals of said

religions and cause +1 per religion present. This allows for "religion

sabotage" to re-enter the game post-corps, but allows theocratic civs to pull

some benefit from non-state , e.g., the science and culture from

monastaries,and the ability to switch state religions/religion civics without

self-sabotage.

Comments? Criticism? Keep in mind these are just the musings of a Noble-level player who did little research for this post, and no number crunching whatsoever...but I pride myself on knowing SOMETHING about the game. Try not to flame if this was a bunch of n00bage.

 

[Sjaramei]

The civics are ok mostly and need no "balancing" (they are not supposed to be balanced from top to bottom). And the higher tech civics is supposed to be better than the early ones. Only civic i feel really suck is serfdom, every other civic is somewhat useful given the right circumstances, not this one

 

[Norbert]

The civics are ok mostly and need no "balancing" (they are not supposed to be balanced from top to bottom). And the higher tech civics is supposed to be better than the early ones. Only civic i feel really suck is serfdom, every other civic is somewhat useful given the right circumstances, not this one

IMO, depending on the difficulty, Serfdom is at least as useful as Emancipation, especially considering said two civics are supposed to be the CE labor civics, with Caste System serving as the SE option.

And, I would contest the statement that the late civics are supposed to be better than the others...Alpha Centauri did better without that progressivist self-aggrandizement.

 

[Sjaramei]

IMO, depending on the difficulty, Serfdom is at least as useful as Emancipation, especially considering said two civics are supposed to be the CE labor civics, with Caste System serving as the SE option.

Unless i have Spiritual trait i wouldn't use Serfdom ever. The anarchy turns and the loss of slavery early game (where this could be useful) is insane. I would rather build/capture more workers than depend on this trait. When someone declares on you and you can't whip defenses you know you are screwed big time

Emancipation shines when you use Universal Suffrage to rush buy instead of whipping, then the loss of slavery isn't that huge. Thats why it's a viable choice instead of Slavery. (and doesn't hurt very much and boosts your economy to the moon )

With later civics i didn't mean bottom ones in the screen, usually number 3-5 can all be viable choices even late game. (though some are better than others ) Compare Hereditary Rule with the later ones, thats a good example of an early civic which is good early, gets outdated later.

 

[Defiant47]

Bureaucracy is the second-best civic in the game. Bureaucracy is also better than Free Speech overall.

The +50% commerce in capital is immense (slightly less immense if running an SE), and the +50% production in capital makes sure that even far in late game when the commerce from Free Speech starts to outweigh the commerce from Bureaucracy, the production is still worth it.

With good cottages in your capital city, good +% science and Oxford University, Bureaucracy is unstoppable.

 

[JujuLautre]

I must say that I disagree with the OP on a high number of points
Government: we have here imho 3 good civics (Rep, PS, US) and a transition civic. Yes, I consider PS as being good: when you want to wage lot's of war, being able to reduce WW so much is really powerfull. Considering that, pyramids excluded, the 3 good civics come late, I like this balance. I think HR is not meant to be powerfull all the game, and it's very good for what it does in the beginning/middle game.

Second column (what's its name already?): I consider here bureaucracy as being the transition civic. It's powerfull, but all the others are much more in their distinct role. I must say that, if you do not consider nationhood as being pozerfull, you should try to emphasize it one time
Actually, I speak without BTS, but I'm not sure it changes nationhood so much (or perhaps it raised its power if you're able to draft rifles rapidly when your opponent has none )

Labor: serfdom is not... weak. I mean, when you have to cottage rapidly a big territory, it has its uses. The problem is that the competition, especially with slavery and caste, is really hard
As Sjaramei, I don't use serfdom unless I'm spiritual usually. This could change, but I severly doubt it.

Economics: not having BTS, I wont say anything about it.

Religion: I really don't feel that theocracy need a boost by allowing propagation of other religions. It's after all the only civic that can replace vassalage AND allow to run nationhood or bureaucracy at the same time. Actually, I really like the religious civics, especially when spiritual

Finally, I really would like to boost serfdom (but how?) to make it more useful, and beside from this one, i really like the others like they are now.

 

[FrancisMarion]

Does the foriegn trade embargo apply to vassals as well running Mercantilism? If so, that should be removed. Hell, you should get a trade bonus with Vassals or Colonies running Mercantilism.

 

[azzaman333]

Serfdom is good if you don't whip your population a lot or if you have a lot of jungle to chop, but you have to get it early. Generally I only use Serfdom when I have beelined Feudalism to get Longbows due to having no metal or wanting Vassalage because of having no religion. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother switching to it.

I've never used Nationhood, since I've always felt it's not worth the turn(s) of anarchy and switching out of Vassalage or Beaurocracy and if I'm running Free Speech I can cash-rush some quick units anyway.

Hereditary rule, Representation, Police State and Universal Suffrage are all useful to me, although I don't really use PS unless Spiritual.

Running Enviromentalism is suicide right now. Free Market will net a lot of extra money if there are multiple continents, Merchantilism is useful if no one signs open borders and you want your corporation to do its job, and I can't comment on State Property since I never build my empire to be able to use it well.

All the Religion civics are balanced as is IMO.

 

[obsolete]

Running Enviromentalism is suicide right now.

Nothing has really changed UN wise. The AI still goes and votes for this stupid civic. Just like all the other stupid stuff....

 

[Underdawg]

Serfdom should have +1 Commerce to farms (Not affecting Financial though?). Thoughts?

 

[Killroyan]

Now that is interesting underdawg. I have never used serfdom so far to be honest and this would make it a little more interesting.

 

[MrCynical]

My opinions on civic balance: Firstly the upkeep cost of a civic is near irrelevant. They were never the major element of expenses, and with the advent of corporations the maintenance is utterly trivial. I don't know what they expect to achieve with the endless tweaking, as it makes no difference.

Goverment:
Hereditary rule is one of the easiest ways to get happiness, especially if you start in a resource poor area. You're unlikely to stick with it for the whole game, but it still plays a major role in the early stages. Representation/Universal Sufferage now presents even more of a dilemma than in vanilla or warlords thanks to the greater amounts of both specialists and gold possible using corporations. Police state is a civic of desperation for one losing a war - not powerful, but conceivably of use.

Whatever the second column is called:

Vassalage is of use to the warmonger and irrelevant to the builder, no real problems. Bureaucracy is strong in the earlier stages of the game, and hence is useful even though you probably won't use it till the end. Nationhood again is a warmonger's civic, and not a powerful one at that. Drafting is a technique of desperation, not design under most circumstances. Free Speech is a no-brainer for a CE, and still valuable to an SE (though they might just pick bureaucracy instead even later on).

Labour:
Slavery is near broken in its strength, and a no brainer for much of the game. Serfdom is the most useless civic on the board, since all it does is speed up workers at a time when they should have run out of things to do. Firaxis seems to have given up trying to make this one useful though. Caste system is of some use to an SE, but otherwise is of minimal value as well, even with the boost to workshops (which really don't fit with an SE). Emancipation is the only challenge to slavery, mostly to avoid the unhappiness.

Trade:
The only column where all four have strong arguments for them, depending what your plans are for corporations.

Religion:
Organised religion is strong for much of the early game, and maybe even right to the end in some economies. Theocracy is again only of use to the warmonger. Pacifism is OK for a builder SE, but otherwise is dodgy. Free religion is the main late game rival to organised, mostly for the science boost, and elimination of diplomatic penalties.

 

[madscientist]

I like all the civics as they are in BTS now.
1) HR, representation are fine. Police state could use a little help, either lowering upkeep or maybe adding and EP %. That said, haing jails in all cities, Mt Rushmore built and running PS you have no war weariness (even better if you have the statue of Zues). With alot of production (levees, Maoi statues, industrial parks) help I think US is a little weaker so maybe +2 hammers per city or maybe +1 hammer per village/town.
2) I like all of column 2 now. never use nationalism much but now I do, the +25 Ep finally balances it out (and no upkeep).
3) Labor: Slavery same upkeep as caste system is great. The +1 hammer makes caste useful if your not flooding cities with specialists, adds some choices.
4) Environmentalism is not suicide. +8 health!!! considering alot more polution is out there with factories (+5 unhealthy with coal and oil). Great synergy with national park and forrest preserves, adds some thought into chopping forrests early. Free market with it -25% cost to corps makes a tough decision between environ and FM. Merc is also great with free specialist and blocks foreign corps. Likewise state property rcoks, yeah get the 10% production bonus but lose those big corp bonus
5) The religions are a bit stale now. Perhaps OR could have something like add +1 EP per temple. Maybe theocracy could have and extra +1 happiness per state religion and -1 foregin religion, something to think about with spamming religion spread on cultural victories while running theocracy. Pac I have always been frustrated with the +1 penalty for troops, I would like to see a 1 gold penalty per unit above say 2 per city (you should be allowed to defend yourself) and increase the upkeep. FR is fine as it is.

Just my thought/wishlist.

 

[Underdawg]

My opinions on civic balance: Firstly the upkeep cost of a civic is near irrelevant. They were never the major element of expenses, and with the advent of corporations the maintenance is utterly trivial. I don't know what they expect to achieve with the endless tweaking, as it makes no difference.

Goverment:
Hereditary rule is one of the easiest ways to get happiness, especially if you start in a resource poor area. You're unlikely to stick with it for the whole game, but it still plays a major role in the early stages. Representation/Universal Sufferage now presents even more of a dilemma than in vanilla or warlords thanks to the greater amounts of both specialists and gold possible using corporations. Police state is a civic of desperation for one losing a war - not powerful, but conceivably of use.

Whatever the second column is called:

Vassalage is of use to the warmonger and irrelevant to the builder, no real problems. Bureaucracy is strong in the earlier stages of the game, and hence is useful even though you probably won't use it till the end. Nationhood again is a warmonger's civic, and not a powerful one at that. Drafting is a technique of desperation, not design under most circumstances. Free Speech is a no-brainer for a CE, and still valuable to an SE (though they might just pick bureaucracy instead even later on).

Labour:
Slavery is near broken in its strength, and a no brainer for much of the game. Serfdom is the most useless civic on the board, since all it does is speed up workers at a time when they should have run out of things to do. Firaxis seems to have given up trying to make this one useful though. Caste system is of some use to an SE, but otherwise is of minimal value as well, even with the boost to workshops (which really don't fit with an SE). Emancipation is the only challenge to slavery, mostly to avoid the unhappiness.

Trade:
The only column where all four have strong arguments for them, depending what your plans are for corporations.

Religion:
Organised religion is strong for much of the early game, and maybe even right to the end in some economies. Theocracy is again only of use to the warmonger. Pacifism is OK for a builder SE, but otherwise is dodgy. Free religion is the main late game rival to organised, mostly for the science boost, and elimination of diplomatic penalties.

This man, my fellow sirs, is spot on.

Does anyone draft at all? In all my games, I never draft unless I am that bored and spiritual.

 

[JujuLautre]

Does anyone draft at all? In all my games, I never draft unless I am that bored and spiritual.

I guess lots of people draft

I did not understand the true power of draft until I played a succesfull SE in my last game; I think I drafted something like 20-30 musketeer and the same number of rifles (if not more, I really drafted like mad )

 

[Underdawg]

I guess lots of people draft

I did not understand the true power of draft until I played a succesfull SE in my last game; I think I drafted something like 20-30 musketeer and the same number of rifles (if not more, I really drafted like mad )

It's just that Bureaucracy > Nationhood for the most part really in terms of output of hammers and gold. If I am spiritual though I do think about switching to nationhood for a bit then draft some units, mainly in high happiness cities (ie Globe Theater City).

 

[JujuLautre]

It's just that Bureaucracy > Nationhood for the most part really in terms of output of hammers and gold.

I know I don't play yet BTS, but in the right position, drafting = more units quickly = more cities > bureaucracy output

Once again, it all depends of situations, like everything in this game; but draft can be very very powerfull. And it's also a happiness source with no upkeep.

 

[Underdawg]

I know I don't play yet BTS, but in the right position, drafting = more units quickly = more cities > bureaucracy output

Once again, it all depends of situations, like everything in this game; but draft can be very very powerfull. And it's also a happiness source with no upkeep.

Calculate it. I doubt it would. Heck, Bureaucracy > Free Speech for a lot of the game! (When many cottages aren't towns yet). The bonus Bureaucracy gives is huge, when your capital has the most developed cottages that is.

I remember seeing a thread with an in-depth discussion with calculations of bureaucracy some time ago, I cannot remember the name though.

 

[azzaman333]

Maybe a quick 5 turn Nationhood Draft Spam, but anything longer than that would seriously hurt your economy.

 

[madscientist]

I do not draft unless in an emergency mostly because the units come out with only half the experience points of a built unit. I would rather mass produce units in the HE and IW cities, fully promoted.

Not to say I do not use nationalism, I love the +25% EP and +2 barracks happiness, plus no upkeep.