Civics Discussion

[Lib.Spi't]

So, with the imminent arrival of the brand new version of Dyntraits by archid we have a very exciting system, that I hope to in the future exploit to the fullest.

Specifically this:
We will have the ability for traits that are blocked/removed by civic choices, traits that require civic choices and civic choices that require traits, as well as civics can add points to gain traits.

This will allow for a very cool and very deep civic system.

Essentially what I hope to eventually achieve is a system that in essence makes civics more powerful the longer you use them, as well as making them more 'damaging' or much 'wider' in impact when you change your civics in relation to how long you have been using that civic.

It can even impact each faction differently for each civic choice.
So Reno using the Gang Civic can gain them all kinds of Crime Lord traits that give them all kinds of unique abilities.
It could even be negative like the NCR using the Slavery Civic for a long time could lead to a loss of the NCR Rangers.

How does it work?
Well, each civic can unlock units and buildings, so the more of these you build the bigger the impact will be when you switch civics, as the buildings and units shut down. I also hope to create long chains of these buildings so building them will keep unlocking more things but will increasingly tie your empire to that civic.

Also each turn a civic is active, it will add points to one or more traits, and will eventually add that trait to your character, these traits can also unlock buildings and units, and other trait benefits, and can have the civic as a requirement, so if you change.. bye bye traits.

Traits can also have levels, so you could gain the first level trait by having a civic active for 10 turns, then level 2 would arrive after 50 turns and so on.

So the longer you remain in a civic choice the more powerful and specialised your faction will become in that civic style.

If you then begin to weight your construction and unit choices down that road, it will accelerate these special trait gains, and also make it far harder to walk away from the civic path you have chosen as you could find a huge part of your civilization immediately crumbles into ruin.

As I said before these civic/trait lines and branches could also be different for each faction, so a focus on slavery could see the raiders and slavers become more and more powerful, while it brings the NCR to ruin.

One path could see the BoS fall into isolationist stagnation, while the same path could see the Ghouls build a Radioactive Ghoul Utopia.

Obviously that is all details that need to be worked out, but I hope you will see the exciting possibilities of it!

 

[Lib.Spi't]

updated civic ideas

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Ok updated post 3 to show current civic effects.

Now to begin thinking about their new effects and the effects of the 2 trait levels for each!

 

[sir_blaze]

there is 1 problem at the moment wealth is not wealthy at all, infact you make more on the chosen one civic than you do with wealth the main reason for this i believe is the specialist cost doesn't out perform the wealth bonuses, trade between nations is not doable unless you share borders and they've built a road system which the AI generally doesn't do. since your own workers are restrained to your own borders they can't build one either. so the only way 2 civs can trade is if they share the same river or by coastal ( if coastal trade is available not to sure on this as there isn't any water improvement techs)

 

[Lib.Spi't]

You do still get domestic trade routes.

I still need to get wealthy working right though. as well as give it it's levels.

I also need to change the upkeep cost for chosen one I think..

I wonder what to do, maybe something like +50% coins all cities and -10 or -20% for science, safety, espionage. Maybe -10% and an extra -10% per level to make a total of -30%.

Something like that.There will be other things as well, not sure what yet. Buildings obviously among other things.

Maybe another thing is to have Chosen One have a negative % to all cities, so your capital gets a big boost, but all your other cities struggle, so that it becomes less effective the more cities you have.

I need to add the trait effect to the front page as well so I can see what I have for that.

 

[sir_blaze]

don't add minuses just for a minus, you have to have it make sense.

and yeah a domestic trade route needs to connect 2 cities by either road river or water tile, atm i've not seen the AI build extensive road systems or roads at all so even if you have open borders to allow trade no trade will happen, additionally on those places that aren't connected with an actual safety border since workers can't leave borders no way to connect them though that in it's self is a bloody dangerous undertaking sending workers out into the wild

every time i've used wealth i make less money than chosen and my borders shrink or i make a lot less money than chosen and my borders stabalize and don't grow. so maybe think less negatives for wealth. and in reality wealth doesn't really impact on science in a negative way. though it does allow for more corruption so the espionage penalty does make sense and having it impact further on safety could be bad. to still make sure noone uses it

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Well the idea behind wealth is that it is a wealth driven leadership, where dollar is king.

So the idea being that leaders would be willing to 'stall' various elements of society for the sake of increasing profits.

So for example.
Not giving that scientist the piece of equipment he needs until he can pay for it. Same for any other productive scenario, builder, farmer, patrol, spy, etc.
Delaying the release of something in order to make more money off of the old something.
Generally manipulating the society to drive up profits.

I can't remember the last time I tested wealth, it was probably before the new version, but I remember it used to make a huge difference to money, just need to recapture that impact. Like jumping from +10 to +100 or +1000. I probably cut it back too hard after that, especially now that Chosen gives you +30-50% coins to the Capital compared to +10% across all cities. my math skils are not good enough to work out how many cities you would need to make that comparable, especially when cities produce different amounts.

I still need to add buildings as well that will allow you to increase the power of a city in line with the civics theme. Lots of banking, lending, financing fun!

 

[sir_blaze]

but then the other side of wealth for science is they actively invest in scientific research and pay for all the gear for them to develop things that the business is interested id, advanced manufacturing techniques to make more money for less workers, better irrigation techniques to get more produce from the same land so he can sell more for the same costs, better refining techniques to get more out of a resource than previous, so wealth works both ways in general so whilst yes they manipulate the market to make better profits be slowing down some things they speed up others and improve aspects to also increase wealth so that it balances out.

but in a world where dollar is king the main things affected would be corruption and espionage defence anyone will sell something to make a buck be it secrets or themselves . the rest would be pretty normal as aspects would offset each other.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Well what we can do is have various things that allow the player to offset the negatives, such as buildings, so they have to actively invest if they want to mitigate those damages to society.

The idea is that it is a profit first leadership/culture, so if faced with the choice to invest heavily in a new piece of machinery, or simply burn through a mountain of cheap labour, the leadership will choose the one with the biggest profit or short term return. Unless you make the choice to spend some of that not so hard earned money to improve things in the way you describe.

The starting point is profit first, you have to be the one to engage in some long term planning if you want it to balance out in the way you describe, you have to be the sensible one that redirects some of the energy and income away from simply acquiring the biggest piles of cash the world has ever seen. Left to their own devices the guiding leadership will simply chase more and more money.

 

[sir_blaze]

ok the main problem with all the civics atm is there is no overall benifit to changing. the chosen 1 isn't great but it is better than all the rest, wealth looses money and security over chosen and stays the same in all other aspects which with a wealth society you'd expect to be overun with cash. you need to work it out so each style has it's distinct benefits over another style but also where they can all still function.

ie with the Wealth Civic you make a loss so why change you can't invest in anything as you have less money and security than before

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Yeah I know, like I said in a previous version wealth gave loads of income, so I scaled it back.
Obviously too far, but then I only did them quick this time around.

Also at this moment CO is overpowered compared to the others because it is the only one that has extra levels (Or at least proper extra levels) so it is not the best comparrison right now, but yeah they both need some work.

CO particularly needs to become far less effective as you build more cities, it needs to really focus on the idea of that centralised 'seat of power' but as the scope of your empire grows it overall works out to be something of a loss, unless you again invest heavily in making it work for a larger empire (or whatever) or it is simply the choice for a faction that really puts all it's eggs into a capital and is not so bothered about the rest.

CO I think was also the only one to benefit from a third round of changes, all the rest are only on their second round of changes so I will up the values where necessary to be more in line with the scale of CO.

 

[sir_blaze]

i guess i don't really get to much into the less effective because of more cities as the most i've ever got so far in a vaulters game to date is 5 and that was once usually it's only 2 or 3 due to their limitations on where they can grow

but in that same thing those limitations also limit the benifits of other civics like wealth as well.

CO isn't that over powered but wealth is definately underpowered in that safety goes to hell with it on in all the times i've played with wealth i've made the same amount of gold but lost a lot of border areas in 1 case my borders went to their original 0 culture square

for my Games CO goes to lvl 2 and all the others start and max at lvl 1

 

[Lib.Spi't]

yeah, I haven't added all the other levels for the other civics yet.

I think like I said originally wealth (or gold production in general maybe) was really high (or would get there) and so I had to try and cut it down, but it has probably gone too far the other way now.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

So, I have laid out the ground work for every civic to now go to lvl 2. I have added in all the entries to the trait file. Now I just have to modify each trait so that it does something interesting that makes sense.

I started making a planning sheet, to try and break down the task a bit, I need to try and break the task down into the smallest tasks possible so that I do not get overwhelmed and have my brain shut down.

At the moment I am going to focus on just planning the leadership ones, and try to get those implemented. So that is 15 pieces to work out. (Civic + 2 Traits) with tag effects and buildings and units.

If people could help me focus into these five, and suggest some stuff just focussed on them, including some interesting ideas for units and buildings, as well as specific tag ideas, and just some generally fluffy thinking around what these different ideologies might look like in a society, that would be great!

I really want to start making some progress in this area, as I feel like I am bogged down right now!

 

[clanky4]

I don't really know if you are keeping the vanilla traits at this point or changing their effects. So I'm just going to assume you've kept them and their effects more or less in tact

So the five leadership civics are:

Chieftain(Chosen One): It was said that they would destroy the enclave not join them. From a trait point of view this one seems like it should include sort of faith based things like Spiritual and possibly Protective due at some tribes general view of family.

Strength: This civic really seems like it is Military lite. I suppose its to represent a sort of gang led environment. The only traits that it seems this civic should help with are less sophisticated and more fool hardy ones like Aggressive.

Wealth: I'm assuming this is something like what Mr House would be running, for lack of a better civic since his actual would be government is self described as an enlightened autocracy. Although in most other cases I'd assume it would be like some sort of ultra capitalistic laize faire state ruled indirectly by those with the means. Focusing on the accumulation and production of wealth. Financial and Industrious

Military: As stated previously this would be like Double Strength Dew with twice the caffeine of regular Strength. Likely be lead by military Dictator of sorts. Imperialistic and Expansive

Democratic: Seemingly the most free type of leadership. The leader is chosen, in some form or another, by the populace of the country. Charismatic and possibly Philosophical

 

[Lib.Spi't]

No you miss understand, the traits are new and directly tied to the civics so Chosen One 1 and 2, Robotic Armies 1 and 2.

The old Vanilla traits may stay, go or be changed, I don't know yet but they are not connected to the civics or civic traits, you get those traits by doing various actions in game. (which I haven't really looked at yet.)

 

[clanky4]

Same basis in terms of effect of those vanilla traits.

Chieftain: traits would give buff to some religious/anarchy aspect as well as potentially defensive promotions.

Strength: would just some sort of raw strength promotion or maybe skirmisher type promotion

Wealth: traits could give a buff to gold production and discount on building some infrastructure buildings.

Military: traits could give a discount on the maintenance from number of cities, maybe lower the maintenance on number of military units.

Democratic: traits could buff great people emergence and give a bit more happy faces.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Ok my Brainstorming thus far:

Spoiler :

Chosen One:

Spoiler :

Concept:
A Faction under this Doctrine is ruled by a single entity, an individual of ultimate and unquestioned authority. This will lead to a very powerful 'seat of power' but the further that power has to reach the less effective it becomes. Resources and productivity are syphoned from other towns to feed the machinery of the Capital City. This leadership functions by projecting an image of overwhelming superiority, mystery or authority. Grand Palaces, Statues, Fanatically Loyal followers, etc. All trappings of the Chosen One's Identity and proof of their unquestionable right to rule those beneath them.
Centralised government, boosts capital, reduces effect of other cities, improved by having a state ideology.
Motto:
'One king to rule them all and in the radiation bind them!'
Fallout Examples:
The Master, The Enclave Presidents, Caesar, Mr House.
Effects:
Improved Capital Output
Reduced National Output
Capital Centric buildings and effects.
Specialists:
Building:
Throne Room(Capital City booster building)and upgrades, Local Administration Building. Statues. Honour Guard Barracks. 'Imperial' Division Buildings such as 'Division of Agriculture or Espionage', etc. Located at the Capital/Palace. (perhaps some form of Corporation that thrives on an 'imperial resource' that can be constructed in towns)
Unit:
Honour Guard (limited amount, possibly tied to borders)

Strength:

Spoiler :

Concept:
A Faction under this doctrine is ruled by the toughest and strongest people. Arguments are settled through trials by combat, authority is gained by punching those above you in the face or generally giving them a beat down to prove that you are in fact better than them. Authority is often maintained through fear and threat of violence or it could be respect of the superior warrior caste. This will lead to a dominance of very powerful combat units, raised in a world of combat and survival of the fittest. This will however see those parts of society considered 'weaker' suffer greatly. More cerebral activities such as gaining wealth or scientific knowledge will suffer as the ruling class will generally look upon these as a waste of time. If you want something you simply take it by force. Fighting pits, Combat Arenas, Forced Labour Camps are all common sites in a Faction Dominated by Strength.
Motto:
'You Break It, You Rule It!'
Fallout Examples:
Various Raider Factions, Caesar's Legion.
Effects:
Improved yield production at a cost of health and happiness.
Melee specialised combat training.
Improved great general production.
XP Boosting buildings
Can Pop. Rush
Specialists:
Improved Output of Labourer for cost of Happiness and Health.
Improved Safety for Scavengers?
Improved Super Mutants (Maybe Happiness)
Many Specialists cost Happiness
Building:
Fighting pits, Combat Arenas, Forced Labour Camps.
Unit:
Gladiators, Champions, War Bosses, Pit Fighters.

Wealth:

Spoiler :

Concept:
A Faction under this doctrine is ruled by the wealthiest members of society. Power and Authority are maintained by a fat purse, not a strong arm. Pursuit of the almighty dollar is the paramount concern, even at the detriment of society as a whole. Those with Wealth use it to gain more wealth, other activities will suffer for the sake of profit margins. Delaying the release of a new weapon to the military or a cure to the masses until they can pay for it is a perfectly acceptable business practice in a wealth society. Everything costs money and the bosses of a Wealth society know it, they will pinch a penny at every opportunity. Society as a whole will become greedier and anyone and everyone will be looking to get paid. Altruism is a luxury no one is interested in affording, this means that for anyone to get anything done you better be willing to pay for it. This means that a Wealth Society will have a very healthy bank balance, but everything will also cost more money to implement. Meaning you will have to be willing to spend money to make... well just about anything really!A lower productivity and Expensive Facilities are common in a wealth society, but you can do or get just about anything you want, if you can pay for it.
Motto:
'If You Can't Pay, I Say No Way!'
Fallout Examples:
The Water Traders of the Hub, The Agriculture Baron's of The NCR, The New Vegas Strip.
Effects:
Improved Tax/Coins/Gold Production
Reduced Hammer Production
Can Gold Rush
Increased cost for Units
Specialists:
Increased cost for Specialists
Improved Income from Merchants
Building:
Coin for X Yield/Commerce buildings, coin boosting buildings.
Unit:
Mercenaries

Military:

Spoiler :

Concept:
A Faction under this Doctrine is ruled by a military hierarchy. The Miltary's needs are paramount. Life is focussed on the preparation and execution of the war machine. In many ways it is similar to a strength society with people who are not soldiers being subordinate to those that are. However it is a somewhat more cerebral environment compared to a strength society. Promotion is based on merit and performance across a wide range of tasks and skills, not simply the ability to punch harder than the guy above you. Orders are followed, this is how order is maintained. Non-Military elements of society, like civilians will generally suffer more under a Military Society, simply because they are just not as important and when a choice needs to be made the military will always win. Military focussed facilities are common in a Military Society, the war machine is always the most important factor.
Motto:
'Lead me, follow me, or get the hell out of my way.'
Fallout Examples:
Brotherhood of Steel, The Enclave
Effects:
improved commerce production, except for gold/coins/taxes.
generalised combat training
Unit Production boosting Buildings/Trainer slots
Specialists:
Improved Military Trainers
Many Specialists cost Happiness
Building:
Military Training Facilities, Military Administration Buildings
Unit:
Military Command Units(perhaps M.A.S.H. type healing units)

Democratic:

Spoiler :

Concept:
A Faction under this Doctrine is ruled by the voting majority (in theory). In a Democracy everyone has a voice. In theory this leads to the greater well being of the populace as a whole as any dissatisfied group can band together to implement change. This leads to a happier and more productive but costly workforce as standards have to be maintained. Oppression of dissenting parts of society is more difficult under a democracy because the leadership can always be held to account, but major dissension is also less likely because grievances can be aired and addressed openly before it becomes a matter of open insurrection. A democracy can develop more 'evenly' than other forms of government, leading to improvement across the board without the domination of specific parts of society. 'Lifestyle Improvement' buildings such as schools and leisure centres along with state administration buildings are common in a democracy as those in power seek to maintain their majority favour.
Motto:
'Every voice is equally insignificant!"
Fallout Examples:
Tandi's New California Republic, Vault City.
Effects:
Increased Great People Rate
Increased Health and Happiness
Unhappy for Civs Without
Increased output from 'Town Improvement Chain'
Minor Productivity Increase
Decrease to Unit Production
Specialists:
Improved Politicians, Improved Citizens, Improved Labourers (Happy, Healthy)
Building:
Education Facilities, Leisure Facilities, Government Administration Buildings
Unit:

A Brief Summary:

Chosen One:
+ Capital, -Everywhere else

Strength:
+Yields/-Health/Happiness(Forced Labour)
+Great General(100%), -Great People(50%)
Better XP (particularly Melee)
Can Pop. Rush
Improved Labourer, Scavenger and Super Mutant
Many Specialists are Unhappy

Wealth:
+Money/-Hammers
Improved Merchants
Increased Costs for Units and Specialists
Can Gold Rush

Military:
+Great General(50%)
+Commerces(Except money)/-Health/Happiness(Military oversight of civilians)
+Unit Production and Military Trainer Slots
Improved Military Trainers
Many Specialists are Unhappy

Democratic:
+Great People
+Health/Happy
+Yield and Commerce (minor 10-25% maybe)
+Output from Village/Town Improvement
Unhappy for Civs Without
-Unit Production
Improved Politicians, Improved Citizens, Improved Labourers (Happy, Healthy)
Some kind of negative involving cost, or maintenance or unhappiness/unhealthiness from 'worker buildings' but with a number of happy/health booster buildings to compensate. (representing the general freedom to grumble rather then a genuine oppression and misery and the need to keep people happy to stay in power)

 

[Lib.Spi't]

These Balances could change depending on what happens with the other civic groups, but for now I am just doing it in isolation to save my brain some headache!

For right now I think I am mostly happy with the 'Ideological' differences on the leaderships and their effect on society. This should give players a sense of their society focussing in on certain tasks and methods.

I am still working them through though so opinions are always welcome.

 

[clanky4]

Chosen One:
+ Capital, -Everywhere else

I disagree, purely from a game balance point of view, to giving the player pretty much bureaucracy as a starting civic. It favors few cities which is what you will have early on giving you little reason to change it. Though the malice to other cities makes sense as a compensation.

Strength:
+Yields/-Health/Happiness(Forced Labour)
+Great General(100%), -Great People(50%)
Better XP (particularly Melee)
Can Pop. Rush
Improved Labourer, Scavenger and Super Mutant
Many Specialists are Unhappy

I do not necessarily know if workers would work better under threat of violence. It certainly is a motivating factor and they certainly will work, but I am not sure how much better they would. I agree with the buff to melee type units. Maybe give them a free promotion like how the vanilla aggressive trait does.

Wealth:
+Money/-Hammers
Improved Merchants
Increased Costs for Units and Specialists
Can Gold Rush

I do not understand why production would be lowered. If anything a wealthy nation in a post apocalyptic society would be productive, or more oriented towards trade routes. But I do not believe that would hamper manufacturing.

Military:
+Great General(50%)
+Commerces(Except money)/-Health/Happiness(Military oversight of civilians)
+Unit Production and Military Trainer Slots
Improved Military Trainers
Many Specialists are Unhappy

Most of these bonuses make sense. Aside from the commerce buff. I do not believe they should receive either a commerce malice or buff.

Democratic:
+Great People
+Health/Happy
+Yield and Commerce (minor 10-25% maybe)
+Output from Village/Town Improvement
Unhappy for Civs Without
-Unit Production
Improved Politicians, Improved Citizens, Improved Labourers (Happy, Healthy)
Some kind of negative involving cost, or maintenance or unhappiness/unhealthiness from 'worker buildings' but with a number of happy/health booster buildings to compensate. (representing the general freedom to grumble rather then a genuine oppression and misery and the need to keep people happy to stay in power)

Seems logical. Although it might be putting too many effects into one civic.

Reading my own comments I seem to not like malices for the most part