Civics Mod: Balance

[Leif]

In the beginning of this thread I had a lot of comment on this civic, but I like this one and I agree with it, also I would like to say that I made myself look like a socialist but I only support PURE communism in the best way anything less and I hate it and then I support liberalisme in high forms, I know that sounds realy stupid but for the most part I am not a socialist or communist but a liberalist. Also I hate the USSR, because they didn't had PURE communisme, but as you said state-property did help there economy.

Define "Liberalist" ,because a liberalised economy is free trade.

 

[anjf]

Define "Liberalist" ,because a liberalised economy is free trade.

I mean in policits the opposits of the socialisme and communisme but not fascime. I mean Right but then in the way of very much free dom and not to a fascistic police state. I hope this clears thing up

 

[impervius]

I disagree with the police state extra revolution times. Sometimes, a police state is th only way to keep a country's economy running. This is why, in germany, people voted for hitler and his nazi party, because the police state they offered was the only way out of the country's economic problems. They VOTED for this, there was no revolution.

 

[ToV]

I looked through the entire thread, and some of the ideas I liked, and some I do not. In particular, Free Markets and State Property are not balanced. I have compiled a list of changes from other's and my own ideas, that I would like you to take a look at. You might find some of these changes you can use. Just remember, I am still making changes to it, and I need a sixth civic for all categories except the economics catagory.

New Civic Ideas

Government:
Despotism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest cites
+25% distance maintenance (“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2> (Who want&#8217;s to do back to despotism?)

Hereditary Rule
Monarchy
High Upkeep
+1 happiness per military unit in city
+25% commerce in capital

Oligarchy
Currency
Low Upkeep
-25% City distance maintenance (A step up from despotism)
+25% City number maintenance (The elite clash for the highest position)

Representation
Constitution
Low Upkeep
+3 science per specialist
+3 happiness in 6 largest cities

Police State
Fascism
High Upkeep
+50% military unit production
+2 experience to new units
+2 happiness per military unit in city (Secret police keeps order)
-50% war wariness
<Anarchy Length 2>

Universal Suffrage
Democracy
Medium Upkeep
+1 hammers and commerce from towns
May spend gold to finish production
(Some sort of penalty)


Organization:
Village
Low Upkeep

City State
Polytheism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 1 unit per turn?
-25% city maintenance costs (Cities take care of themselves)
-25% culture per city (To slow border growth so cities are more isolated)

(Unitary or Imperial)
Monarchy
Low Upkeep
+10% production in capital
+2 happiness from palace
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities

Vassalage
Feudalism
High Upkeep
+2 experience to new units
Free units <+6 base, +20% pop>

Federal
Paper
Medium Upkeep
+2 happiness in largest cities
-25% city maintenance costs

Nationhood
Nationalism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 3 unit per turn
+2 happiness from barracks
+1 culture from specialists
-1 happiness per 25% foreign nationality (xenophobia, anyone?)


Legal:
Barbarianism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities (&#8220;Under barbarism, the strong take what they want from the weak&#8221
<Anarchy Length 2> (Who would volunteer to go back to this civic?)

Decree
Writing
Low Upkeep
+25% culture
+1 happiness from palace

Bureaucracy
Civil Service
High Upkeep (Bureaucracy becomes corrupt and inefficient over time)
+60% hammers in capital
+60% commerce in capital

Jurisprudence
Constitution
Medium Upkeep
+25% culture
+10% science
+1 happiness from courthouses and jails

Freedom of Speech
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
+100% culture
+ 50% Great People birth rate (The government does not suppress ideas)
+ 50% war wariness (There would not have been protests during the Vietnam War if the public had not seen all of those nasty war images)
(I would like this civic to give even more war wariness after Mass Media is researched. Is this possible?)


Labor:
Tribalism
Low Upkeep

Slavery
Bronze Working
Low Upkeep
Can sacrifice population to rush production <2 unhappiness per pop rush>
+1 hammer for quarries (Where slaves commonly worked)
+1 commerce for plantations (Where slaves commonly worked)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Serfdom
Feudalism
Low Upkeep
Works build improvements 50% faster
+1 commerce from farms (feudal lords squeeze out every penny from their serfs)
-50% growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages (urbanization isn't encouraged)
-1 happiness from (something) (serfs do not like being overworked)

Caste System
Code of Law
Medium Upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists, and merchants in cities

Emancipation
Democracy
No Upkeep
Doubles growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages
Gives Civs without Emancipation unhappiness <400>


Economy
Decentralization
Low Upkeep

Mercantilism
Banking
High Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
-50% distance maintenance (Many European colonial empires ran mercantilism, so this seemed a better place for the bonus)
+25% commerce from markets, grocers
+1 commerce per specialist

Lassie-Faire
Economics
Low Upkeep
+2 trade routes (Many business incentives)
+25% production from forge, factory (Factories are worked overtime to increase production- and profit)
-2 health (Industrialists do not care about the environment. They see it as something to be used and abused)
-10% commerce (The corporation takes more for themselves)

Regulated Market
Industrialism
Medium Upkeep
+1 trade route per city (Some business incentives)
+10% production from forge, factory
+1 commerce, production, and science per specialist (Some government investments)
+3 Health

State Property
Communism
Low Upkeep
+1 Free Specialist (Investments can be directed to specific ends)
+1 Food from watermills, workshops
-25% Commerce trade yield (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)
-(1 or 2) Trade Routes (Individual initiatives are not encouraged)

Environmentalism
Ecology
High Upkeep
+6 health in all cities
+25% production from recycling plant (Nation recycles as much as possible)
+1 happiness per extra health (Citizens pride themselves in keeping the environment clean. In game terms, there is now a logical reason for all of the extra health)
+1 food from all tiles already producing food <if not possible, +1 food from farms and watermills> (Hydroponics offer larger yields)


Religion
Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Monotheism
High Upkeep
Can build missionaries without a monastery
Cities with State Religion construct buildings +25% faster
+1 extra happiness in cites with state religion

Theocracy
Theology
Medium Upkeep
Halts the spread of non-state religions
+2 exp in cities with state religion
+10% military production (Easier to recruit a Holy Army)
-1 happiness per non-state religion (Self-explanatory)
<Anarchy Length 2>

Pacifism
Philosophy
No Upkeep
+100% Great People points in cities with state religion
+1 gold per military unit
+100% war wariness (Self-explanatory)
Less free military units <-5 base, -25% pop>(Increased military costs have more effect)

Freedom of Religion
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
No state religion
+1 happiness for every non-state religion in a city
+25% science
-10% culture (The &#8220;Morally lax&#8221; society described in the Civilopedia)

Credit to Armandeus, Aussie Lurker, Holistic, korn469, JBG, Dubmetender, and TheJopa
for their ideas.

 

[Armandeus]

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments, and especially thank everyone who gave detailed changes they would like me to make. I will go over them soon and make changes to this mod accordingly.
I'm sorry I haven't commented in a long time. I've been super-ultra-busy with work and I haven't even looked at this forum or played Civ 4 in over a week. I should have more time in a week or so to work on this mod and discuss things here.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Keep it coming Armandeus !

 

[Leif]

I especially like CoV's ideas.

 

[ToV]

I especially like ToV's ideas.

Thanks, but just temember, those are not all my ideas. See the credits. And also, I have made changes to it since I posted it. I am constantly made some changes, and if you want to debate about them, do it in this thread: Civics: need modification?

Back to the topic at hand, I really hope the idea's I have presented will be used, since I personally have the modding skills of a small child. Or worse, an inanimate object, such as a potato. The point is that I am relying onthers to use my ideas.

I know you want to have a penalty for each civic, but sometimes the upkeep and / or the opertunity costs are enough. Instead of giving Pacifism a high upkeep, for example, work to make it's base effects more damaging. (I have done this by reducing the number of free units) Look into ideas such as these as you make changes. Above all, make it balanced. (That's what you promised in your title!)

 

[Armandeus]

OK, I updated the mod using some of the ideas presented here. The changes are in the first post of the thread.

I used a little of what ToV mentioned. However, I won't be copying exactly the conclusions reached in the "Civics: need modification?" thread. That's a mod for someone else to make. Also, some of the suggestions there are not possible using only the CIV4CivicInfos.xml file (which is what I am doing here). For example, "+25% commerce from markets, grocers" is not possible using the variables and parameters in CIV4CivicInfos.xml. You can add happiness or health for buildings, but not commerce or production. You can do it for improvements, but not for buildings.

Giving happiness penalties for non-state religions is difficult to mod right now, so I will try working on that later (if it is necessary).

I hope my additions and subtractions are more worthy of the title "balanced" than before. I will keep playtesting these changes, and reading everyone's constructive criticism.

I still need some more free time before I can make the other version I mentioned with some new civics in it. Basically my ideas are:

Get rid of Emancipation. It is less of a civic in itself than it is a denial of another civic. Doesn't changing your civic from Slavery to something else mean that your civ no longer practices slavery, therefore emancipating the slaves? The only purpose I see to Emancipation is in giving a strategic penalty to other civs still using Slavery (the "anger" penalty). Once all other civs have changed from Slavery, the penalty no longer affects them, and this final "best" civic is no longer meaningful to your civ. Instead, I'm thinking of replacing it with a civic representing organized labor.

For this mod, I'll keep the default categories, but I want to add one extra civic to each category. For example, for Labor, I'd like to add a civic representing flex time, working from your home, increased leisure time, etc. as the final "best" civic (after Organized Labor/Unions whatever). Other civics I'll add may come in the middle of the sequence. I have a few other ideas, but I'll talk about them later.

 

[Caradoc]

I think you've done some fine work here. Overall, though, I'd say you have made things tougher on players and maybe much tougher on the AI. I would encourage you to study how the AI handles the revised civs. It appears to me that the AI will implement any new, higher-ranked civ that it gets access to. So you should certainly examine the interplay between civs and techs.

Balance should not mean that all civs in a category are equally strong. There should be a progression as one moves up the tech tree.

 

[Armandeus]

I think you've done some fine work here. Overall, though, I'd say you have made things tougher on players and maybe much tougher on the AI. I would encourage you to study how the AI handles the revised civs. It appears to me that the AI will implement any new, higher-ranked civ that it gets access to. So you should certainly examine the interplay between civs and techs.
Balance should not mean that all civs in a category are equally strong. There should be a progression as one moves up the tech tree.

Thanks for the compliment. However, I haven't really noticed the AI getting significantly crippled in any games I've been playing with this mod. Maybe I'm missing something. If there is something specific, I would like to know about it.

My reasoning for changing the research bonus to a cultural one for Free Religion is one example of my attention to the relation between techs and civics.

The AI may implement new civics just because they are new. That is OK, I suppose, because they are in basic historical order, just like in the vanilla game. That means that there will be periods of prosperity and hardship similar to history. It doesn't seem like a major problem to me. I have noticed some AIs holding on to older civics in games I've played, so maybe the AI is better than we think. (?)

I don't think I'm striving to make all civics in a category "equally strong." I'm not comparing them to each other (except to avoid duplication). Rather I am comparing them to what I think generally happened historically concerning that particular civic. With that in mind, I try to give both negative and positive aspects to each civic, so the player (or AI) has to consider the good with the bad, which I think is interesting. That is what I mean by "balance."

I updated the mod again slightly. See the first post.

 

[ToV]

Armandeus, the civics look much more balanced now. However, I would suggest you do three things.

1) Re-write the list on the front page so it includes all effects that it will include including the original effects. This way, it is much easier to see if it is balanced.

2) I personally would give free Speech a much higher war wariness penalty, such as +50% or higher.

3) You said that your main complaint with pacifism is that the extra +1 gold does not have much effect, because of the free units. To fix this, simply reduce the number of free units.

 

[Armandeus]

Tov, I like your suggestions.

1. You're right, I need to do that as soon as possible.

2. I was actually going to do that, but I thought a big penalty would upset a lot of people. I will do that soon.

3. That's a good idea, but I think the number of free units is 0 by default, and I think Pacifism is set at the default. I'm not sure how to reduce free units further. Maybe I could try a negative number, but I doubt it will work. Hmm.

 

[Spocko]

Great mod. I'd like to find a way to have buildings built slightly faster under Slavery, just to add something that makes this civic a bit more attractive - but I see no way to do this with the switches available to us.

I've tweaked war weariness for Free Speech as 35. After this round of adding mods to my fusion mod, I'll playtest and report back.

In general, thanks for this mod, as it inserts more decisions into the game.

 

[ToV]

Armandeus, you know how you have problems with the Distance and City Maitetaince Modifiers. I thought you would like to know that Aussie_Lurker has found that it is simply a text error.

 

[Armandeus]

ToV, can you give me a link to the post where he describes this? Thanks.

 

[ToV]

Here is the link:v0.01 ALPHA: Expanded Civic System and Other Changes It is on the third or fourth post on the page. I should mention that technically Aussie_Lurker did not discover this. Holistic did.

 

[Calavente]

Get rid of Emancipation. It is less of a civic in itself than it is a denial of another civic. Doesn't changing your civic from Slavery to something else mean that your civ no longer practices slavery, therefore emancipating the slaves? The only purpose I see to Emancipation is in giving a strategic penalty to other civs still using Slavery (the "anger" penalty). Once all other civs have changed from Slavery, the penalty no longer affects them, and this final "best" civic is no longer meaningful to your civ. Instead, I'm thinking of replacing it with a civic representing organized labor.

I know I come after the debat but :
I think that emancipation has a negative penality against ALL non emancipation civics : ie : servage and caste system : not only slavery.
IMO, emancipation looks like what we think we have now in most western countries : all people are supposed to be equals in rights...etc. and we disapprove of systems where some cathegories of people are less equals.
on the other hand I have currently no idea of bonus-malus to add to it.

I had a question on your slavery civic :
is a 2unhappy people really playable at high level? (I don't play at monarch but I've read about it): when your city is limited to pop 3 due to happiness, a +2 unhappy is a big drain on your biggest city (not capital) ie : you cannot have cities bigger than 1 pop. or you especially make one at 4 to have the malus and it is perpetually in a revolution state.
I understand the will of it, but if on prince we can easily have 7-10 pop city : a 2unhappy is a balanced enough malus, but on higher levels... I'm dubious.

 

[Ekmek]

I hate necromancy but I noticed that this was not updated for BTS. I did that but did modifications of my own.

One I have a question about. I added to Pacifism <civicpercentanger> equal to that of emancipation. Does anyone know how this works? I know for emancipation it affects this civic so I'm assuming that if you ahve this in differnt civic categories it affects only that category.

 

[Headlock]

Armandeus, Very nice work.

I agree with your pacifism +100% war wearniess-as you say, it IS pacifism...

The only thing i would be carefull about is clutter in both percentages and the amount of benefits per civics.

Re %s, i would suggest limiting yourself to a "pallette" of 20%, 50% 100%; purely in the interest of simplicity and immediately seeing the benefits/disadvantages of a certain combo of civics. Adding up 10s and 15s can be a bit tedious, and the AI can exploit them right quick sometimes!

Re the amount of benefits/Disadvantages, the same rule would apply- simplicity in order to maintain clarity. I understand that small changes can add a real 'flavour' to a civic but i would, personally, caution against having more than 3-4 max benefits/disadvs for any civic. It simply gets a bit micro-managerial to weigh up every instance, and then some benefits will inevitably be lost in the noise. A few strong, efficient and clear benefits/disadvantages to each civic would be best.

These are only personal comments, I really think youve done a very nice job here. Alot of them ive come tomyself- eg the slavery+plantations, +1 happy from factory under State Property, commerce+production from towns under UniSuff, etc. Good to see there are like minds out there

Regards,
HDK