Civics: need modification?

[Riker13]

Aussie/Red

Yes that sounds right.

Ok here is another problem, I am not so hot on Python yet and I have tried adding that code you posted (Aussie) but it comes up with this error:

Failed to load CvEventInterface

What do you think????

Regards

Riker13

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK Riker. Go into your .ini file and, on the line which says pythonerrlog=0, set it to 1 instead. This will generate a new log every time you try-and fail-to load a mod. This log will then tell you where it is having the problem. Post the error log and your python code changes and I will try and help you if you like .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Riker13]

Thanks Aussie.

[Feb 09, 2006 - 20:45:49] Messages while processing 'Resource/Themes/Civ4.thm'

Error : Decl - ('Civ4Theme_Common.thm', Ln:401, Col:13) Assignment source propertyId 'SF_CtrlTheme_Civ4_Control_Font_Size3_Italic' not found
Error : Decl - ('Civ4Theme_Common.thm', Ln:402, Col:13) Assignment source propertyId 'SF_CtrlTheme_Civ4_Control_Font_Size3_BoldItalic' not found
Error : Decl - ('Civ4Theme_Common.thm', Ln:408, Col:13) Assignment source propertyId 'SF_CtrlTheme_Civ4_Control_Font_Size1_Bold' not found
Error : Decl - ('Civ4Theme_Window.thm', Ln:3048, Col:9) Assignment source propertyId 'SF_CtrlTheme_Civ4_Control_Font_Size1_Bold' not found

 

[Riker13]

Sorry Aussie, this is the one your after.

 

[RED DIAMOND]

I keep putting my foot in my mouth. Of course you are right Aussie

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK Riker, there is your problem. You are trying to import a python file you haven't got-namely CustomFunctions.py Of course, this doesn't mean you don't have other errors-just that this is the one which is causing you most grief right now. Solve it and we can move on.
Also, I don't think you need CustomFunctions in order to enact a change to def CanConstruct. Anyway, give me some time to think about what I did when I first tried modifying python, and I will get back to you-OK?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Riker13]

Ok thanks Aussie, I will try and have a play with it today.

 

[ToV]

Hello Again. So far, My list is as follows.

New Civic Ideas

Government:
Despotism
Low Upkeep
Anarchy Length 2

Hereditary Rule
Monarchy
Medium Upkeep
+1 happiness per military unit in city

Representation
Constitution
Low Upkeep
+3 science per specialist
+3 happiness in 6 largest cities

Police State
Fascism
High Upkeep
+50% military unit production
-50% war wariness
+2 happiness per military unit in city
Anarchy Length 2

Universal Suffrage
Democracy
Medium Upkeep
+1 hammers and commerce from towns
May spend gold to finish production


Organization:
Village
Low Upkeep

City State
Polytheism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 1 unit per turn
-25% city maintenance costs
-20% culture per city

Hegemonic
Monarchy
Low Upkeep
+20% commerce in capital
-(1 or 2) happiness in largest 6 cities

Vassalage
Feudalism
High Upkeep
New units given +2 experience
+6 free units

Federal
Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
-25% city maintenance costs
+2 happiness in largest 6 cities

Nationhood
Nationalism
Low Upkeep
Can draft 3 unit per turn
+2 happiness from barracks
+1 culture from specialists
-1 happiness per 20% foreign nationality


Legal:
Barbarianism
Low Upkeep
-1 happiness in largest 6 cities (“Under barbarism, the strong take what they want from the weak”)
Anarchy Length 2

Decree
Writing
Low Upkeep
+25% culture
+25% commerce in capital

Bureaucracy
Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
+50% hammers in capital
+50% commerce in capital
+10% increase in city maintenance (Bureaucracy becomes corrupt and inefficient over time)

Jurisprudence
Constitution
Medium Upkeep
+50% culture
+1 happiness from courthouses and jails

Freedom of Speech
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
+100% culture
+ 50% Great People birth rate (The government does not suppress ideas)
+ 25% war wariness (There would not have been protests during the Vietnam War if the public had not seen all of those nasty war images)


Labor:
Tribalism
Low Upkeep

Slavery
Bronze Working
Low Upkeep
Can sacrifice population to rush production <2 unhappiness per pop rush>
+1 hammer for quarries (Where slaves commonly worked)
+1 commerce for plantations (Where slaves commonly worked)

Serfdom
Feudalism
Low Upkeep
Works build improvements 50% faster
+1 food from windmills

Caste System
Code of Law
Medium Upkeep
Unlimited artists, scientists, and merchants in cities

Emancipation
Democracy
No Upkeep
Doubles growth of Cottages, Hamlets, and Villages
Gives Civs without Emancipation unhappiness


Economy
Decentralization
Low Upkeep

Mercantilism
Banking
High Upkeep
No foreign trade routes
-50% distance maintenance (Many European colonial empires ran mercantilism, so this seemed a better place for the bonus)
+25% commerce from markets, grocers

Regulated Market
Economics (Perhaps somewhere else)
(Low or Medium) Upkeep
+1 trade route per city
+1 free specialist? (Tell me if there is something better)

Corporatism
Industrialism (Or Corporation if I move Free Market)
Low Upkeep
+2 trade routes
+20% production from factories (Factories are worked overtime to increase production- and profit)
-2 health with factory (Industrialists do not care about the environment)
-10% commerce (The corporation takes more for themselves)

Planned
Communism
Medium Upkeep
-20% production (Citizens have little or no incentive to work hard)
+1 food from watermills, workshops
+1 production from watermills, workshops (So the production penalty can be balanced, at the cost of other improvements, such as cottages)
+1 free specialists per city (A logical extension of the change made to mercantilism)

Environmentalism
Ecology
Medium Upkeep
+6 health in all cities
+20% production from recycling plant (Nation recycles as much as possible)
+1 happiness per extra health (Citizens pride themselves in keeping the environment clean. In game terms, there is now a logical reason for all of the extra health)


Religion
Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Monotheism
High Upkeep
Can build missionaries without a monastery
Cities with State Religion construct buildings +25% faster
+1 extra happiness in cites with state religion

Theocracy
Theology
Medium Upkeep
Halts the spread of non-state religions
+2 exp in cities with state religion
-1 happiness per non-state religion (Self-explanatory)
Anarchy Length 2

Pacifism
Philosophy
No Upkeep
+100% Great People points in cities with state religion
+1 gold per military unit
Half as many free military units (Increased military costs have more effect)
+100% war wariness (Self-explanatory)

Freedom of Religion
Liberalism
Low Upkeep
No state religion
+1 happiness for every non-state religion in a city
+25% science
-10% culture (The “Morally lax” society described in the Civopedia)

Credit to Armandeus, Aussie Lurker, Holistic, korn469, and JBG for their ideas.

 

[Holistic]

The legal category is the one I find the worst in unmodified Civ4, theoretically at least. Gameplaywise it's another matter, of course (where it instead offers quite interesting trade-offs). The main reason for this is that I don't quite understand what it is supposed to model, since the civics choices have quite different connections to law. Bureaucracy might refer to how law is instituted, Vassalage to how law is enforced, Barbarism to how the population is controlled (which is not the same as enforcing a particular law), and Free Speech to what rights are granted. Nationhood might relate to what law aims at.

So. The question I'd really expect a "Legal" category to answer is why the laws are binding for the citizens. This would give (roughly chronological (from a Western European perspective))
- Tradition; Laws follow from tradition
- Canonic; The gods are good, and hence their laws are too
- Edict; The ruler(s) is/are good, and hence their laws are too
- Natural Law; Laws that are moral are "good" (and common to all, regardless of e.g. faith or nationality)
- Legal Positivism; Laws that are instituted by the powers that be are good (could also be called Legalism (since this usually follows))
- Legal Instrumentalism; Laws encourage desirable behavior (could also be called Social Engineering)

Another option would be how laws are instituted
- Custom; laws follow from custom
- Canon; laws follow from religion
- Edict; laws follow from the ruler's desires
- Bureaucracy; laws follow from a bureaucratic procedure
- Constitution; laws follow from a bureaucratic procedure but are subject to judicial review
- Treaty; laws follow from treaties made with other governments (or should at least not violate those treaties)

The problem with incorporating Free Speech into any category is that either you have freedom of speech or you have not; it's not in contrast to, say, personal rights to property. Also, as a negative liberty, it's doesn't necessarily conflict with positive liberties (and arguably requires a corresponding positive liberty to exist to be of any use). If a civic category can be made multiple choice, the legal category could be a "Rights"-category (roughly);
- Familial
- Sovereign (where everything belongs ultimately to the Ruler)
- Civil
- Political
- Economic
- Social

Well, I hope there was a point to this.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, Holistic, I actually took the second option you mention in my civics mod. My Legal Civics are Tribal Law (laws following tribal custom), Martial Law (Laws based on military procedure), Ecclesiastical Law-though Canonical actually sounds better-(Laws based on religious belief), Beuracratic Law (laws based on beuracratic procedure), Constitutional Law (laws based on a written compact between the rulers and the ruled), Jurisprudence (the modern system of judicial law featuring defence, prosecution, judges, juries and legal precedent), International Law (laws based on international treaties). I have instead also created a seperate category defined as rights-which deals with rights to property, right to trial (habeus corpus), right to protection by your social betters in return for service (vassalage), rights based on race, rights based on citizenship (civil rights-including freedom of speech, association etc), the right to vote for all citizens (Universal Sufferage) and Equal Rights (all the rights of citizenship, but extended to all people-regardless of colour, creed, social standing or citizenship). It is the interaction between laws and rights which I feel make things REALLY interesting-such as how does Canonical law effect Civil Rights? Does the freedom of speech and assembly only apply if it does not violate the religious laws?
Anyway, good to hear your thoughts, Holistic, it seems like we are on the same page .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Holistic]

Yuh, I saw you chose that route, Aussie_Lurker. The slight problem with having a civic called "Jurisprudence" is that it basically means study of the law. Perhaps "Adversarial" (where facts only are presented by the parties) might sound better (but implies that the other choices are "Inquisitorial" (where judges actively find facts)).

Another minor issue with your particular choice of civics is that International Law might be difficult to model in-game, given that International Law only exists to the extent that nations respect their obligations. International Law is ultimately voluntary (and more so for powerful nations). As a civic, it might actually be slightly easier/better to model by a new category; International Relations/Diplomacy. Might be rather pointless, though, since it would only serve a limited purpose outside of scenarios (e.g. a European 17th century scenario (for the rise of the Westphalian system)).

Having both a rights-category and a general legal-category is quite nice (and does indeed offer interesting choices), but, generally, I feel that the fewer categories the better (another reason why not to include a Diplomacy-category). The most interesting interactions between the categories also seems rather complicated to convincingly model in-game and still be kept simple. But YMSMV*, and to actually contribute, I'd suggest adding a civic for third generation-human rights, "Solidarity Rights" (e.g. the right to a clean environment).

* Your Modding Skills Might Vary

 

[ToV]

generally, I feel that the fewer categories the better

So do I. I personally that we should not make to many new catogories, and try to maintain the existing system as much as possible, In my newest suggestions (a few posts up. No on has responded to them yet.), I have a 5 by 6. (I need two more civics) I personally wouldn't dare to go past a 6 by 6 grid.

 

[JBG]

Over at the Luna Mod we've been hammering out some civics (36 in all) and I just wanted to thank you lot for inadvertently solving problems/giving ideas. Especially to Aussie_Lurker who was able to help me specifically.

Good work, guys!

EDIT:
And ToV, why not have (for Federal) -50% size/distance penalties, +2 war weariness, -10% commerce in capital?

 

[ToV]

And ToV, why not have (for Federal) -50% size/distance penalties, +2 war weariness, -10% commerce in capital?

Thanks, JBG! That is perfect! I'll edit it in now.

 

[Holistic]

ToV, as for organization you might consider adding either an Imperial or a Colonial-civic, basically depending on at what point in the tech tree you want to introduce a civic that should basically make it easier to have a wide-spread empire. For City States, I'd suggest Sailing as the Tech Prerequisite, and perhaps change the name of "Village" to what dh_epic suggested very early in this thread as the baseline-Organization civic; Decentralization.

As for an additional legal civic, a Canonical/Ecclesiastical could perhaps fill the void between Barbarism and Bureaucracy (although as I wrote a couple of posts up, I don't feel Bureaucracy and Free Speech as legal civics to be that... "logical").

EDIT: Oh, and might I suggest replacing Environmental-civic with Mixed Economy? While they basically should have similar effects (save for production boost from Recycling Centers -- perhaps replaced by a modest boost to Great People-generation?), Mixed Economy seems like a bit more "realistic" economical civic than Environmentalism. Consequently, State Property could be called "Planned" instead.

EDITed further for bad reading of what ToV actually suggested...

 

[JBG]

Thought you guys might like to know that the Song of the Moon has gone Gold!

And what about an Orthodoxy civic for religions? That would make sense given the other options floating around.

And, Holistic, I LOVE your sig!

 

[ToV]

ToV, as for organization you might consider adding either an Imperial or a Colonial-civic

I considered it, but Mercantilism (after my changes) seems to give the same desired effects.

EDIT: Oh, and might I suggest replacing Environmental-civic with Mixed Economy? While they basically should have similar effects (save for production boost from Recycling Centers -- perhaps replaced by a modest boost to Great People-generation?), Mixed Economy seems like a bit more "realistic" economical civic than Environmentalism. Consequently, State Property could be called "Planned" instead.

I'm not sure about this. Environmentalism takes active efforts to protect the environment, while a mixed or regulated economy takes less active and more passive action. Also, the environment takes higher priority in Environmentalism. As for renaming state propery, I am personally fine with that.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I think there is room for both an Imperial and Mercantile civic. To me, the first one represents the manner in which a person rules over distant cities (often on seperate continents), whether those cities be conquered (as in the Case of Rome and Spain) or those formed by Colonists (as in the case of the American Colonies). Mercantilism, however, represents a 'Colonial-Style' economy, where you send out colonists to stake out land and resources to be sent back to the homeland. The two, however, are by no means mutually exclusive-and I would say that both the Spanish and British Empires (as well as the Dutch) ran both an Imperial Organisation and a Mercantile Economy-side by side.

As for mixed economy, I went with a Welfare State (and kept Environmentalism), as I feel the modern welfare state represents a true mid-point between a planned and free economy.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey everyone, I have posted the Alpha version of my Expanded Civics mod in the 'Completed Modpacks' section. Please check it out-and try it out-and tell me where I have gone wrong.....or right !
Keep your eyes open for future updates to my mod over the next 2 months, but at least I have the underlying bedrock complete.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[ToV]

"Actually, I think there is room for both an Imperial and Mercantile civic."

I just realized: I do have an imperial civic, but I named it Federal. If I move the Tech Requierment to Civil Service, then it will work as Imperial.

I have edited my new list into my last post to save on space.

Please note that I myself am not a modder; just a guy with a lot of ideas. I need help in that respect.