Civics rework

[Ahwaric]

Ok, we all agree that civics model should be changed. But I want to know if we agree on how much and in what direction.
There is a lot to do regarding balancing, but with the change of the religious category (see here), the most important question is, what to do with civics that are avaliable to only one religion or civ? Personally, I do not think it is that elegant and probably should be changed.
So, please vote. I do not promise to make the changes strictly according to the voting results, but will keep it in mind as a guideline

 

[A Golden Dragon]

ENCHANTMENT!!!! lolz SANDAL

will vote later

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I think a complete rebuild is best. Orbis has a LOT of features FfH does not, and is vastly different. Keeping the same civics (And civics are, admittedly, one of FfH's weak points) is a handicap.

I'm planning this myself, but I'm waiting. Whatever wonders the FF team creates will likely be able to be linked to civics... So I'm waiting for that before I redesign.

I almost voted for Enchantment, btw.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Orbis civics are already quite different from base.....and he's stated he's already "rebuilt" them once, and probably couldn't come up with too many which were extremely better.

I agree to a point, although I do think some things could use minor tweaks....a complete rebuild is likely unnecessary IMO (what would we end up with that was SOOOO much better than what is already there).

 

[Valkrionn]

Orbis civics are already quite different from base.....and he's stated he's already "rebuilt" them once, and probably couldn't come up with too many which were extremely better.

I agree to a point, although I do think some things could use minor tweaks....a complete rebuild is likely unnecessary IMO (what would we end up with that was SOOOO much better than what is already there).

For one thing, civic categories that actually STICK to that category? One that about the base civics that has always bugged me is the way some of them tend to 'wander' around the different categories.

 

[Ahwaric]

I agree, and I tried to clear civics categories for some time now. That is just the last step (for now).
I want to make the categories clear and civics well defined. No need to start anew, as most civics are fine & need just some rebalancing.
Religious civics will be written from scratch, more in line with BtS category. And I think most or even all religion & civ specific civics might got removed - some are not that well defined & unique, don't fit any category very well, and from gameplay point of view it is not that good I think (2 turns of anarchy just to get religion & corresponding civic).

 

[Valkrionn]

For religious civics - I agree. I like the mechanics they bring, but think it should be tied to the religion itself... Which shouldn't be hard, just DLL work to clone the tags.

One thing you may want to do is import Xienwolf's new civic screen... Opera brought to my attention that it does, indeed, hide civ-specific civics if you don't qualify.

 

[Opera]

I voted the first option...

Also, yeah, I'm not against civ-unique civics if they're hidden; which is the case in LENA already.

I like religious civics but if you can put that in the religion itself, why not...? Or you could make it so you would need another tech to research the civic-unlocking tech... Making it harder to get access to that civic.

 

[Kalina]

I also voted first option. I like religion-specific civics, though I think they should be always accesed from different (and expansive) tech then religion itself. This way you have to decide how much effort you want to put into worshiping given religion.
Civ-specific civics are also ok, though I don't like Scions' Glory. Maybe I'm missing something (gameplay or flavor wise) but didn't even see a point in using it.

 

[A Golden Dragon]

i like most of the effects of the religous civics, but i don't think they should be maintained as civics. And could be merged in while proceeding along religous technologies or as it has reached a percentage of the population.

Switching religion could also cause more anarchy acording to that system aswell

 

[Dominicius]

Civ specific civ should just be merged into the civilizations via features in someway. I do like how Orbis rebalanced civics, years ahead of either FfE or FfH.

Now, concerning religion specific civic... I like them but I agree that it causes more anarchy when switching religions.

 

[Humakty]

I voted the first option, but I don't specially want civics to change... Redistribute them if you want. Oh, I was forgetting there was a agnostic problem. Too bad for them ?

 

[thursday]

In another thread, Cadaveres made a suggestion about how the religion category of civics could be handled if the current religious civics were merged into the techs that unlock them:

Category: Religious power
- Aconfessional: No state religion. Religions spread normally.
- Traditional: Pagan Temples UB and elder councils effect is doubled. Religious buildings effect is "halved". The effect of the state religion in the city is "halved".
- Official religion: +1 if state religion is present in the city. +1 per non-state religion present in the city.
- Monasticism (temples act as monasteries, preserving knowledge above all): All temples (pagan and religious) get +25% . Prophets and Great Prophets get +1 , +25% war weariness. The rest of the effects of the temples is "halved".
- Atheist: No state religion. Religions less likely to spread. +1 per religion on city. Cannot build temples. -30% number of cities maintenance. -30% distance to palace maintenance. +2 per specialist
- Crusade: +1 if state religion is present in the city. +2 per non-state religion present in the city. Can draft 2 units per turn. Must be at war with at least one civilization with a different state religion. Several free units per city. New units start with the "morale" promotion. -25% war weariness

As he notes over there, this gives additional civics options for agnostic civs (which could use a little love civic-wise) and actually gives the inquisitor promotion and purge the unfaithful ritual a reason to exist. While I think there's more potential that can be tapped here than he shows in his suggestions, his thinking is in the right direction. This is the way I'd like to see religious civics expanded.

There's obviously a wealth of discussion in the other civics thread about this issue. It makes good reading material for anyone concerned with the balance issues and possibilities that would accompany big changes to civics.

 

[Ahwaric]

That is why I posted this link above. This is the change proposed for 0.30. But anyone is welcomed to post suggestion for adding/removing civics & balancing them.

 

[thursday]

Oops. Better read before I post next time. On topic, though, the changes look good, and I'd be interested to play with them.

 

[Opera]

Well, the list is intriguing but I would rather see their effects to comment

 

[Tobbe_1]

It was probably discussed and decided at another thread...but one thing i really like in orbis is the religious civics category. it influences my choice of religion and i can combine the religious civic with any other civic...sure, humanism comes late, but then agnostic is meant to be disadvantage. and for the double change of religion/civic --> double anarchy...well it makes spiritual better and it discourages frequent religion changes...fine for me...so i miss the choice: keep the religious civics category....

If you have to redistribute them...i voted for integration into religions.

edit: i just took a closer look at the new proposal for redistribution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8609716&postcount=2)...the elves might need a nerf, but if you do it that way, guardian of nature becomes useless to the elves, as survival is just to good/important right now...

 

[Luckmann]

Enchantment!

 

[Jake the Peg]

I voted for removal of all unique civics. While they are vertainly flavourful, I think they are counter productive. Why would you ever use anything but the unique civic? I think civics should be chosen to suit your playstyle and situation, and uniques discourage this.

 

[Opera]

That's a good point