Civics reworking.

[Isotope]

The post
Special attention to civics part 1 and part 2

Considering that theese ideas would never be implemented in vanilla FFH2, FF and Orbis are the only ones who could benefit from them.
I think most of theese ideas demand a lot of work with their implementation and should be somehow changed to make their implementation easier.
Also, Orbis civics always needed some rework.

My comments regarding some of theese civics:

God king: Should be high upkeep and remove the maintenance penalties. The possibility of changing the GP output in the capital is interesting.

Aristocracy (Feudal contract) I think giving +2 general XP, free units and some yield bonuses to citadels is enough.

Republic: Grants adaptative trait. Either way, elections mechanics. Either way, leave as it is, +100% to cottage growth.

Magisterium: Seems the equivalent to Magocracy in Orbis, which isn't very ellaborated. Maybe a net XP boost to arcane units and +25% production of adepts. If this can't be done, maybe it would be easier to make a unique adept (like Royal Guards) that starts with an extra promotion and is build faster.

Vassalage: Allows drafting and military units are produced with food.

Bureaucracy: The part of being able to go over 100% in science of culture in exchange for your savings is... original. Maybe some handicaps to this Like every -1gold/turn is equivalent to 0.5science or culture/turn. Although I don't think this could be easily implemented.
Otherwise, just +50% GP in the capital.

The great dreaming (Slumbering oven): Grants insane trait. I think if this could be implemented it would be awesome.

Forced labor: Better renamed to slavery and left with slavery effects.

Caste system: Better leave it like it is in vanilla Civ.

Agrariarism: I think a -20% military production would be better.

Mercantilism: I think it would be better as it is in vanilla CIv. No foreign routes, no foreign corprations and an extra specialist.

Foreign trade: It shouldn't grant happiness.

Hearth and Home: I like the idea of reduced food needed to grow. Maybe it would be better to implement it as "Independent farmers" civic from Next war: Extra food when a city grows.

Fortune and Glory: A renaming and just an increase in great general points generated upon victory (+20%).

Excellence: A renaming and leave it at +2 culture per specialist.

Knowlege: Maybe it would be enough with a science % boost. (+10%). I don't think it would be easy to make specific buildings to be build quicker.

Justice (Social order): Leave as it is. In religion branch and with the same effects.
Maybe Enlightment (Empyrean unique civic) could be renamed to Justice.


Xenofobia: Needs another name. Under cultural values. Cities can't flip from culture. No foreign culture. -1 diplomatic penalty with all other civs.

Consumption: Maybe an equal culture boost when hurrying a building with gold. Like the effect of Opera building in Next war mod.

So what are people's comments?

 

[Jabie]

Xenofobia: Needs another name. Under cultural values. Cities can't flip from culture. No foreign culture. -1 diplomatic penalty with all other civs.

So what are people's comments?

Unavailable to Elohim?

 

[Opera]

I have to say that I don't like the "default civic"="no modifier". So, I would suggest finding modifiers for Tribalism and Decentralization. Right now, I think Tribalism could get -10% in all cities but +1 (explanation: while labor may exists, it is very different in a tribe than in a city, for example; in a tribe, there is much more leisure and less great projects). Decentralization could lower trade routes yields, simply to suggest an highly unregulated trade, even among the cities of the civ.

I would change "Neutrality" to something along the lines of "Regional folklore". Just the name. Neutrality sounds too political to me.

Otherwise, I think Orbis' civics are quite good. I will check again

 

[Mylon]

The civics, as originally designed in Civ4, are designed to be 100% positive. They all grant bonuses, rather than come with penalties.

As for the default ones, the bonus is that they are low or no upkeep.

 

[Isotope]

Personalized civics
-Lots of changes to most of civic effects.
-"Legal" branch.
-Several civic renames.
-Some new civics: Barter, Bureaucracy, Oligarchy, Barbarism.

Copy CIV4GameText_FFH2.xml file to F:\Civ 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Orbis\Assets\XML\Text

Copy CIV4CivicInfos.xml and CIV4CivicOptionInfos.xml to F:\Civ 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Orbis\Assets\XML\Gameinfo

Copy CvCivicsScreen.py to F:\Civ 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Orbis\Assets\python\Screens

Open GlobalDefinesAlt.xml from F:\Civ 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Orbis\Assets\XML with notepad, search "MAX_CIVIC_OPTIONS" and change the value to 7.

Since I haven't made any changes to civilizations folder, at the start of the game, because I have added a new branch, you won't have most of the civics selected and displaying the right information, after selecting them everithing goes normal.
All the changes are XML. Probably they aren't very balanced.

 

[Darksaber1]

The post
Xenofobia: Needs another name. Under cultural values. Cities can't flip from culture. No foreign culture. -1 diplomatic penalty with all other civs.

Isolationism?

 

[arkham4269]

I have an issue with the slavery civic in concept. Basically is it slavery in the sense that most households have a slave or two but they are more indentured servants and often they can win their freedom? Or is it more of the 'industrialized' slavery of the United States where a major part of the economy was slaved based (in that the slaves where generating the wealth and were considered wealth as well).

The reason I ask this is because if it is the latter, their should be significant penalties in happiness and the civic should allow some sort of 'police' station' type building to represent the troops needed to keep the slaves in line.

Also, this type of slavery is good for producing wealth (since you aren't paying most of your workers) but also comes at risks of slave revolts. I don't remember if it was a or mod but I remember playing games where under slavery you'd periodically get slave revolts and they were a pain, especially if you were at war already. I mean there already is a mechanic for generating random barbarians, I would think you'd be able to create something similar that would take into account the amount of farms and the general level of happiness of the local city. Plus, I would think for every rebel slave alive at the end of players turn would up the chance that more slaves would revolt.

I don't know, but I'd think a bit of this code might have already been worked on in regards to the Fall Into Revolution mod. I know that a lot of that code is going to be integrated into FF although more to have barbarian cities later morph into minor civs which I am all for.

 

[Opera]

I tried your personalized civics, Isotope. Some questions and remarks:

1) TXT_KEY for Oligarchy seems to be missing.
2) Why +3 from the Doviello Palace for Divine Rule?
3) How would explain +2 with Theocracy?
4) I really think that there should be a disadvantage for Republic. Why not increasing anarchy length? With Republic, there could be more protests.
5) I like the War civic because it makes sense to have it in cultural values rather than in Economy (??).
6) Hmm... I'm not sure about Freedom not being usable by Evil leaders. Well, it would certainly be weird to have Slavery and Freedom at once, though it could be explained: not-slaves are totally free but slaves aren't.
7) Autonomic cities is pretty nice. I wonder if the + will balance out the no maintenance enough.
8) You killed agrarianism

Maybe it could be interesting to distinguish how the government rules with who is the government.

I will play a bit more for balance things.

 

[Darksaber1]

Also, this type of slavery is good for producing wealth (since you aren't paying most of your workers) but also comes at risks of slave revolts. I don't remember if it was a or mod but I remember playing games where under slavery you'd periodically get slave revolts and they were a pain, especially if you were at war already. I mean there already is a mechanic for generating random barbarians, I would think you'd be able to create something similar that would take into account the amount of farms and the general level of happiness of the local city. Plus, I would think for every rebel slave alive at the end of players turn would up the chance that more slaves would revolt.

I know it's in BtS, and was in early BtS version of FfH.

 

[Isotope]

1) TXT_KEY for Oligarchy seems to be missing.

My bad, I added some entries to the Orbis text file so I haven't seen the error. here is the right file
Otherwise, add

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_OLIGARCHY</Tag>
<English>Oligarchy</English>
<French>Oligarchy</French>
<German>Oligarchy</German>
<Italian>Oligarchy</Italian>
<Spanish>Oligarchy</Spanish>
</TEXT>

To the FFH2 text file

2) Why +3 from the Doviello Palace for Divine Rule?

I added happiness bonuses to Capital Palace (everyone has it's own UB for Palace), Summer and Winter Palaces with Divine Rule. Should I reduce it?
I wanted to represent that cities who recieve visits of the God Emperor/King are far more happier. And that the capital is more productive regarding culture (Ex:Alexandria)

3) How would explain +2 with Theocracy?

By adding health bonuses to some government civics I wanted to somehow represent the grade of intrusion of the Government in private life. Small greek republics, and often theocracies, usually forced strict morale and healthcare to their citizens through laws and/or public opinion.

4) I really think that there should be a disadvantage for Republic. Why not increasing anarchy length? With Republic, there could be more protests.

I'm thinking of adding +50% to war weariness but it seems inadequate. Maybe I'll reduce some benefits or withdraw +1 commerce to Towns. Maybe 2 extra turns to anarchy.
For now, I increased to 3 Anarchy length.

6) Hmm... I'm not sure about Freedom not being usable by Evil leaders. Well, it would certainly be weird to have Slavery and Freedom at once, though it could be explained: not-slaves are totally free but slaves aren't.

I thout it was strange to have evil civs value more Freedom than War or Knowlege. And yes Slavery+Freedom seems completelly inadequate.

7) Autonomic cities is pretty nice. I wonder if the + will balance out the no maintenance enough.

I'm more concerned with the Ai. I reduced Ai preference to this civic . I thought of reducing the bonuses but thet the civic would lose it's flavour ("No maintenance" impacts more than "-[number]% maintenance"). Maybe an increase in Anarchy turns or penalties to military production. Also -1unhappiness/unit means a lot of annoying micromanagement, so I don't know. Also, i'm thinking of renaming this civic to Federated cities of Federalism but it seems more Government than Legal.
For now, I increased to 3 Anarchy length.

8) You killed agrarianism

Hmm... I changed it back to -1 production from farms and removed all other penalties excepting -10% military production.

Also Enforced Order now requires Code of Laws.

I have an issue with the slavery civic in concept. Basically is it slavery in the sense that most households have a slave or two but they are more indentured servants and often they can win their freedom? Or is it more of the 'industrialized' slavery of the United States where a major part of the economy was slaved based (in that the slaves where generating the wealth and were considered wealth as well).

The reason I ask this is because if it is the latter, their should be significant penalties in happiness and the civic should allow some sort of 'police' station' type building to represent the troops needed to keep the slaves in line.

Also, this type of slavery is good for producing wealth (since you aren't paying most of your workers) but also comes at risks of slave revolts. I don't remember if it was a or mod but I remember playing games where under slavery you'd periodically get slave revolts and they were a pain, especially if you were at war already. I mean there already is a mechanic for generating random barbarians, I would think you'd be able to create something similar that would take into account the amount of farms and the general level of happiness of the local city. Plus, I would think for every rebel slave alive at the end of players turn would up the chance that more slaves would revolt.

I don't know, but I'd think a bit of this code might have already been worked on in regards to the Fall Into Revolution mod. I know that a lot of that code is going to be integrated into FF although more to have barbarian cities later morph into minor civs which I am all for.

I think Slavery represents that part of your total population is enslaved. This is common in both ancient slavery and modern slavery. Regarding the details... well if it was EUIII or Victoria or Pax Romana we could be speaking about them.
I added a penalty to war weariness. Maybe a happiness penalty would be fine but then It should be justified by some extra benefits. I'll think of something. And wealth... I think it's already represented by rushing production. You sacrifice slaves instead of money.

Regarding theese changes... I'm sure all of them require meddling with dlls, I can't do it. The only files I can easlily modify are XML ones. Maybe Ahwaric is interested in making some changes to civics. You should ask him.

 

[Isotope]

edit edit edit.

 

[Imuratep]

I thout it was strange to have evil civs value more Freedom than War or Knowlege. And yes Slavery+Freedom seems completelly inadequate.

See my signature to see what Freedom means for evil leaders - everyone can do everything without any consequences. Everyone accepts everything because you are tolerant to the ways of the other --> pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, sadonism like in Marquis de Sade's 120 days of Sodom etc. etc.. Perpentach had Liberty as a preferred civic before it was changed to slavery and for Keelyn it's quite fitting too.

 

[Isotope]

See my signature to see what Freedom means for evil leaders - everyone can do everything without any consequences. Everyone accepts everything because you are tolerant to the ways of the other --> pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, sadonism like in Marquis de Sade's 120 days of Sodom etc. etc..

This is not Freedom. This is Licentiousness.

 

[Imuratep]

Yes, but licentiousness is just a pejorative term for the same thing. We consider it as freedom if a woman can walk around with a Bikini on the beach or even topless. We consider it as freedom that homosexual marriage is legally identical to heterosexual marriage in Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands and has at least an equivalent with nearly the same rights in whole Europe. Certain people with a more traditional morale consider both examples as licentiousness. A century ago even in Europe homosexuality was considered as a perversion at the same level as the examples I named above. So if we are among those that accept a concept it's freedom, if we are not it's licentiousness.

 

[Seon]

We consider it as freedom if a woman can walk around with a Bikini on the beach or even topless.

... We do?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Only if she is hot enough...

 

[zup]

Yeah, I'd rather not see old, fat hags topless.

 

[Calavente]

question : why should freedom and slavery be opposited ?
if they are in different civic type, they don't answer to the same question.
if they are in the same civic type : they are mutually exlcusive.
seeminlgy antinomic ideas can in fact be used in common. I mean :
Athen was a democratie (power for the people) with slaves and without any power for women;
UK is a democratic (power for the people) monarchy.

some definitions :
slavery is owning people.
forced labor is drafting people to build things. slaves, prisoners, unlucky people.
freedom is that people can do what they want without being bothered by governement : you just have to define who is "people" : is it human, is it non-slave, is it males, is it demons, is it vampires, is it elves....Etc

BTW : I agree with Imuratep's views on liscenscious and freedom : total freedom is anarchy, it may become debauchery and sloth ...Etc, also it may not. so maybe freedom defines something else and such a civic should be re-named ?

 

[lumpthing]

Glad to come across this thread because I really dislike the current FFH civics. For a modpack with generally such great flavour it's a surprisingly flavour-undermining set.

Your stuff looks much better Isoptype. Do you have updated versions of your XML files available for download?