Civics

[GeneralZed]

Are the civics going to effect the civs economy? All previews say its going to make you citizens more happy, but theres no information on what will happen with your economy or commerce. If theres no effect, then I must say its LAME. Am I right?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think its very similar to what SMAC did. So it will probably effect numerous categories.

 

[mitsho]

I have the impression that Civics somehow meand Government from the infos we've got until now. Am I right or wrong?

Onto your topic, civics will certainly have an effect on economy, because one civic (confirmed) is "free market (laissez-faire capitalism?) - state controled market (communism)". And this has to have an effect on economy, mustn't it?

mfG mitsho

 

[Kosez]

Woy. Wait a minute. Civics is same as government. I hope not. I thought it will be just an addition to government and culture and everything...

 

[GeneralZed]

@ mitscho
Free market: freie Marktwirtschaft
state controled market: Planwirtschaft

They dont have nothing to do with the government in RL. However, as I said nobody said a word about the economy only about the production of happy faces.

 

[mitsho]

Well, they have nothing to do with government directly, yes. But I wouldn't rule it out completely.

But there have been said words about civics and governemnts, and there has been said words about civics and the economy civic! So, my conclusion was the above. These are not my own words, but what I read in the previews!

mfG mitsho

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think they did say they replaced governments with Civics. Like I said, its similar to Social Engineering in SMAC. Governments still exist, just not in preset packages.

 

[Yuri2356]

@ mitscho
Free market: freie Marktwirtschaft
state controled market: Planwirtschaft

They dont have nothing to do with the government in RL. However, as I said nobody said a word about the economy only about the production of happy faces.

A state controlled economy has nothing to do with the goverment?

The economy has everything to do with government, because even a free market will only exist if those in power create laws which allow it to exist.

 

[dh_epic]

There have to be at least a FEW economic civics. Free market versus planned at the very least. Maybe Mercantile, or Anarcho-Capitalism, but I'm just throwing those out for food for thought

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Not to mention Civics that are indirectly economic (ie Slavery v. Emancipation)

 

[Kosez]

Ok, civics are great. But there has to be some foundation on which you can build civics. Or not?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I do believe that there is some basis, Kozez. From what I understand, as you build up your repertoire of social/cultural/commercial and governmental techs, then both the number and flexibility of your Civics options increases. For instance, at the start of the game, it is almost certain that your economics will be communal or centrally planned in some fashion, but as you pick up various commercial and governmental techs, then you might be able to make your economy mercantile or feudal or free market, etc etc.
As for set government types, it doesn't seem as though any specific labels are in. However, Hearts of Iron 2-which also incorporated a form of social engineering-could generate a Government Label based on your nations' position on both a Right/Left political axis and a Democratic/Authoritarian axis-and I hope and pray that they will adopt a similar system for Civ4, because I too will miss specific governmental labels.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Che Guava]

....because I too will miss specific governmental labels...

I don't think I'll miss the convinient specific labels for gov'ts (what is the real difference between a democracy and a repulbic anyhow?? seems like apples and oranges to me...), but I do think it would be fun to name your government type. Wait, scratch that, maybe not name the the government type, but add in the ridiculous pramble to a country's name that became so popular during the cold war. Remember great state names like "The People's Democratic Republic of Congo"? "The most Serene Republic of Genoa"?

I'd love to change "Persia" to "The GLorious Kindom of Parsi" when i change to a monarchy, then switch to "The Most Democratic and Immortal Persian Republic" when I discover communism....

 

[mitsho]

5 categories for civics:
- free market vs. state controlled market
- secularism vs. theocracy

QUESTION: What are the other 3 civics? authoritarian vs democratic? federalism vs. centralism? emancipation vs. slavery (I know not quite good opposites)? etc.?

From these 5 civics, the government is formed. There are according to 'Computerbildspiele' 25 forms of government. (the magazine is lying just in front of me... )

Does that mean every single civic combination got a name? What would that mean for the number of options between two opposites on one civic slider (can somebody calculate that? If it's possible, I'm not good at math...)? Or does it just mean that Computerbildspiele thought wrong (5 x 5 civics = 25)?

mfG mitsho

 

[mastertyguy]

5 x 5 civics = 15

I think you meant 25

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, I mistyped and I'm gonna correct in in a second... nevertheless thanks for the reminder...

 

[Slax]

civics may include military unit cost?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd imagine that civics will affect everything that governments affected in Civ 3, that survived to Civ 4 (ie if units have a maintenance cost, then that will probably be affected, if there is something like corruption, then that will probably be affected, etc.)

 

[Chinese American]

shouldnt there be 2^5=32 governments

either they used wrong math or they disallow certain combinations

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, that is a key question which remains unanswered-does the 25 civics refer to the fact that you have 5 Civics Categories-with 5 choices each, or does it mean that there are 25 civics categories, or is it something in between?? Even if it is 5x5, the possible number of permutations (assuming no mutually exlusive choices) would be far FAR greater than just the 25 they mention. Perhaps what they mean is that their are 25 new 'civic options'-via the tech tree-between the start of the game and its end. Anyway, needless to say I will be waiting for baited breath on this one!
I think the key thing in all of these civics options is that there really needs to be a trade off at each step. For instance, if you favour conscription over a standing army, then your unit maintainance costs, and foot-unit build times, should be lower-but the rate at which they gain experience would be lower.
A free market economy would produce greater wealth, but demand for goods should be higher etc etc. Basically, you get something GOOD, but have to accept something BAD in return-the question is what good and bad elements are you-the player-prepared to accept. Lastly, the civics system will be even BETTER if two things are included: the ability to Mod in both new categories and new choices within categories AND if the various categories interact in various ways. For instance, the bonuses/penalties for being Isolationist (assuming that is a Civics category) may be very different between a Democratic and Authoritarian nation (again, assuming this category is in).
Sorry to blather on like that!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.