Civil Service before Theology

[Julmas]

Getting the Porcelain Tower is a must in pretty much every deity game, no matter what the ultimate goal is. And the easiest way to get that is to build the Haga Sophia, spawn a great engineer, wait for education and rush build the tower. The reason this works is that the AI doesn't like to build the HS for some reason.

Now, if the National College is delayed in the opening game Education will also be delayed, and there's a risk that it won't be discovered before an AI builds the PT. And there are many good reasons for delaying the NC; going for the Hanging Gardens, Early cultural wonders, more cities or some early military rush.

I've had quite a few attempts where I tried to do too much in the early game and lost out on the PT. But after a while I noticed that I always failed because I didn't get Education fast enough, and never because I didn't build the HS fast enough. After noticing this, I've changed my research order to get Civil Service before Theology.

Except for the slightly increased risk of not getting the HS, researching Civil Service first is stricly better in every way. At least as long as happiness is positive.

1. The extra food from Civil Service will help the Capital Grow faster, which means the Haga Sophia can be built in fewer turns when Theology hits. In some cases the extra growth might even make production focus unnecessary for building the HS. After getting more (over?)confident that the AI won't build the HS, I now try to balance the production so that HS is completed on the same turn as education.

2. The extra food will also increase science from population. I haven't done the math on this one, but my gut feeling is that this can shave off at least a turn on Education compared to the other way around.

3. The pikeman is available earlier. That's a pretty situational benefit, but can help on defense sometimes.

4. The extra food for 15(?) turns means you will have a larger city, with more of everything after the PT is built. (Yes, that's kinda the same point as 1 and 2)

Another tactic can be to stay in production focus and try to get the chichen Itza, or some other early wonder that is still unbuilt. The most important thing here is maybe not the order of the techs, but the insight that the Haga Sohpia does not need to be rushed; it is fine to complete it in the same turn as education and optimize for other things.

There will always be a few (10?) turns between the national college and Civil service. Focusing on food in these turns would be a waste unless the city is really close to getting a new citizen. It is better to stagnate and build something here. Anything. If a settler is needed this is probably the best time window to get it.

Disclaimer: I have played a handful of games in this manner, and have yet to lose out on the HS. But it can of course have been a lucky streak. I also have the Wonders of the Ancient World pack, which may or may not alter the timing of the HS.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I'm a big fan of CS before Theology on Immortal and below, but I can't say the same about Deity.

There are two problems with delaying Theology on Deity. In an isolated position, you'd like to have Hagia Sophia done or nearly finished before Education lands so you can start on the University. In a more central position, you're probably relying on Research Agreements to clear Education, and quite possibly either Theology or Civil Service. Delaying Theology under those circumstances more or less precludes hard building Hagia Sophia, which costs you Notre Dame if you went Liberty and the Porcelain Tower if you didn't.

The Wonder pack definitely affects AI Wonder completion times.

 

[Resonance]

I think it depends a bit on your initial policy choice.

The basic idea with liberty is to aim for both ND and PT. In a typical game for me this is only reasonable with help of the GEs from finishing liberty and the HS. Anything beyond turn 90 can be a gamble, especially if an early runaway civ occurs. But finishing Education before turn 90 is a serious challenge. It can of course be done, usually for me with the help of some RAs, but not by that much, maybe turn 85 is a good aim.

So the real problem is to get liberty finished and the HS great engineer before turn 90. If you find this possible with CS first, do it. If not you will risk losing one of these wonders.

If you opened tradition, your happiness situation in the cap is better and ND is not crucial. Yet again, PT beyond turn 90 is a gamble, and you are pretty much auto-losing on ND. So only go CS first if you are sure to get HS done before education anyway. Why this? Well, because you want to build a university when Education finishes, not HS, right?

 

[peddroelm]

No river start - No need for chiken istza - go Theology first - allows to build HS while growing


Lots of river farms, gold invested in allied cultured CS - go Civil Service first. [grow while researching Theology] Building HS in time (~T90 ) might require to stagnate growth for a while...

 

[fmlizard2]

I like to bulb either Theology or Civil Service with Great Library. I typically play Immortal, where this is pretty reliable, but you can do it on Deity. Especially with a good capital and the wonders DLC helps.

Which I pick really depends. It tends to be driven by my game objectives and the luxuries I have in my lands. If I have calendar luxuries, that takes me down the Theology path. If I have trapping luxuries, cows, sheep, or any other four hooved beasts in my area, I wind up doing Animal Husbandry, Trapping, and Civil Service.

All things equal, I <3 Civil Service for the defensive value of pikes and my soft spot for Chichen Itza.

Then again, I open differently then a lot of players quoted here. I typically run Tradition all the way through and try to count on hard building wonders with lots of and Aristocracy/Marble. Civil Service is one more way to get a huge population early. This typically puts me in a brinksmanship situation in regards to troops and good city sites, but it is also very solid footing for a huge mid-game surge on the back of and centralized , powered by extended Golden Ages.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I like to bulb either Theology or Civil Service with Great Library. I typically play Immortal, where this is pretty reliable, but you can do it on Deity. Especially with a good capital and the wonders DLC helps.

When actually does it go with Wonders DLC? In 'vanilla' it usually goes by early-mid 40's. So if I take a shot at GL, which is rare, I don't gamble and pick Philosophy. Unless nobody builds it early on and then you can grab it later.

 

[fmlizard2]

When actually does it go with Wonders DLC? In 'vanilla' it usually goes by early-mid 40's. So if I take a shot at GL, which is rare, I don't gamble and pick Philosophy. Unless nobody builds it early on and then you can grab it later.

With Wonders DLC, Great Library can go anywhere from the late 30s to the 70s on Immortal. If you can finish it by turn 42-45 you will most likely get it (>75%), with before 50 still giving you a good chance. After that it gets dicey and depends on luck and how warlike the game is. I play a lot of Pangaea so the game world has more early wars and thus, wonders go a little slower.

It is very easy to hard tech through to open up Theology by then. Usually, you will have Theology open by the mid-late 30s if you go Pottery, Writing, Calendar, Philosophy.

If you go Civil Service, it can be slower since you need one more tech (Pottery, Writing, AH, Trapping, Philosophy), though completion of Philosophy will correspond very closely to a normal GL build time in the early 40s. On occasion you will blast through the GL (especially with Egypt and a Tradition start) and will have to decide if you want to gamble and hold off completion of GL (sit with 1 turn left) until you are ready to take a medieval tech.

 

[The Pilgrim]

With Wonders DLC, Great Library can go anywhere from the late 30s to the 70s on Immortal. If you can finish it by turn 42-45 you will most likely get it (>75%), with before 50 still giving you a good chance. After that it gets dicey and depends on luck and how warlike the game is. I play a lot of Pangaea so the game world has more early wars and thus, wonders go a little slower.

Same thing without DLC. 42-45 is exactly the average, I'd say. Maybe they don't help that much after all.

It is very easy to hard tech through to open up Theology by then. Usually, you will have Theology open by the mid-late 30s if you go Pottery, Writing, Calendar, Philosophy.

If you go Civil Service, it can be slower since you need one more tech (Pottery, Writing, AH, Trapping, Philosophy), though completion of Philosophy will correspond very closely to a normal GL build time in the early 40s. On occasion you will blast through the GL (especially with Egypt and a Tradition start) and will have to decide if you want to gamble and hold off completion of GL (sit with 1 turn left) until you are ready to take a medieval tech.

Do you ignore Mining completely? I don't think I've ever delayed it past 3-4th tech.

 

[Mazer Rackham]

I like to bulb either Theology or Civil Service with Great Library. I typically play Immortal, where this is pretty reliable, but you can do it on Deity. Especially with a good capital and the wonders DLC helps.

With Wonders DLC, Great Library can go anywhere from the late 30s to the 70s on Immortal. If you can finish it by turn 42-45 you will most likely get it (>75%), with before 50 still giving you a good chance. After that it gets dicey and depends on luck and how warlike the game is. I play a lot of Pangaea so the game world has more early wars and thus, wonders go a little slower.

When I go for the Great Library on Immortal (probably 70% of my plays), I am usually too scared to try to push off completing philosophy and calendar or trapping to get CS or Theology. Do you really get these techs done by 42-45? In those situations, I always go Liberty so I don't know if you are getting growth out of tradition to make that happen. It doesn't seem possible.

Occasionally when I decide to expand first, I can get 3 or 4 cities up and the GL still hasn't gone. In those situations, I have often been able to get it and get something juicy. Below Immortal, I definitely follow your strategy but at Immortal I usually just settle for Philosophy around turn 40.

 

[fmlizard2]

When I go for the Great Library on Immortal (probably 70% of my plays), I am usually too scared to try to push off completing philosophy and calendar or trapping to get CS or Theology. Do you really get these techs done by 42-45? In those situations, I always go Liberty so I don't know if you are getting growth out of tradition to make that happen. It doesn't seem possible.

Yes, I often do. My approach typically is Tradition in many cases. I like a vertical playstyle, a strong capital, and acquisition through mid-game conquest.

Tradition policies help with getting the population-based that you aren't geting because you delayed Library (to get it free with GL). However, that is more about picking up early tiles with the opener - you won't have gotten to the food ones yet. The real population boost comes from an early granary, which I take before my opening worker or monument if I have 2 or more wheat/banana/deer tiles. That can goose your enough to make it through Philosophy in time, especially on the Theology track.