Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[Senethro]

Then how should this:
be interpreted?
They list nearly every popular antivirus software there, so it can't see another way to interpret it.

Yes, and I've used almost half of that software list with Steam over the years and had zero problems. Once more, the anti-Steam crowd are making the worst possible interpretation and trying to claim this tech support page means you should uninstall your AV even if you have no problems.

Its a tech support page for Steam. If a piece of software conflicts with Steam and you want Steam to work, of course its going to recommend uninstalling it. But if its important to the user to have AV protection, (and it should be) then logically they're going to try a new AV software.

But this is an awful lot of thought going into something that rarely happens. Shows how desperate the anti-Steam crowd is that their selectively reading and misapplying the advice in a tech support wiki. Feeling a little hard done by now that 2K Eliz has absolutely confirmed Steam?

 

[Commander Bello]

<snip helpless defense attempt>

Since that wasn't good enough here is what they say on their tech support page about Firewalls, AVs, and Malware.

I don't have any problem to agree that Ubisoft's proposal is as silly as Steam's strong recommendation.

Does this make things better? For any of them?

What I am wondering about is that if a car manufacturer would suggest not to fasten the seat belt in case of uncomfortable sitting position, everybody would be outraged.

If a software company does something similar, out of a sudden a lot of self-proclaimed apologists are jumping out of the bushes, pointing out that "others are doing the same". So what?

I repeat the question: does this make it any better?
Am I supposed to put my trust in such a company?

Steam has questionable TOS, Steam issues questionable advices how to deal with AV software.
Since Civ5 will be bound to Steam, Steam is the topic here in this forum, not Ubisoft, not any other company - which does not mean that they may be better. They are just not the topic here.

 

[12agnar0k]

Its a fact that some AV or firewall softwares interfere where they shouldnt, they are over protective in nature, I have AVG/Malware'sAntiWalwareBytes/Spybot/SygateFirewall + I have installed others too and none have given Steam any issues. Its just in some cases due to how AV or Firewall software works it may cause issues, personally I don't know about anyone else but if my security software interferes with the working of other essential programmes I will replace it.

 

[mjs0]

I don't have any problem to agree that Ubisoft's proposal is as silly as Steam's strong recommendation.

Does this make things better? For any of them?

Of course not and I never said it did.

What I am wondering about is that if a car manufacturer would suggest not to fasten the seat belt in case of uncomfortable sitting position, everybody would be outraged.

Of course they would but there is no equivalence since not wearing a seatbelt doesn't guarantee you an accident.
I will go on here because this is the crux of my original post. Disabling a firewall (whether it is for 20 minutes while installing software or all day while installing software then playing games) will have exactly the same result...you will get infected. Both things are dumb, both result in the exact same outcome. The Steam suggestion is slightly worse because of the format of the delivery and the scope of it, but since the end result is the same implying as the post I responded to did that Steam is significantly worse than any other company is just plain wrong.

If a software company does something similar, out of a sudden a lot of self-proclaimed apologists are jumping out of the bushes, pointing out that "others are doing the same". So what?

So, don't compare as the post to which I responded did, and suggest Steam is way way worse, because it isn't.

I repeat the question: does this make it any better?
Am I supposed to put my trust in such a company?

I never said it did and I never said you should.

Steam has questionable TOS, Steam issues questionable advices how to deal with AV software.
Since Civ5 will be bound to Steam, Steam is the topic here in this forum, not Ubisoft, not any other company - which does not mean that they may be better. They are just not the topic here.

They were made the topic by the post to which I responded; they were held up as shining beacons of righteousness compared to Steam. I was responding to this comparison with a little balance in the form of facts, not opinions.
I am not interested in debating the Steam TOS, it is not relevant to any of the posts I have made here.

The topic I was addressing was the advice to disable Firewalls, AV, and anti-malware software. I am not interested in debating the other opinions and I have not stated an opinion on them.

Let me say this very simply so you can understand

I am not defending Steam.

I am not saying you should trust them

I am not saying that everyone being equally bad makes it OK

I am not trying to convince you to change your opinion.

All I did was respond to a post that implied no one else would ever do this with facts that showed that was nonsense and hyperbole.

At the end of my post I said:

it is not fair to single out Valve for this criticism without acknowledging the broader malaise.

I agree Steam's statement is amongst the most egregious...

I stand by these statement but not any of the strawmen you are trying to attribute to me.

I simply don't understand why you are trying to pick an argument with me.

 

[tom2050]

It would be nice if you could provide evidence that your interpretation is more correct than mine instead of just telling me I'm wrong while being a mod.

You can test this out yourself.. disable all security software on your computer and you will with no doubt get some type of virus', malware, rootkits, and other stuff over time even if you browse fairly safe websites and do nothing that would seem to be dangerous.

Luckily, the majority of computer user's have more common sense than to listen to such a thing by Valve.

People in general should never listen to advice from a DRM program anyways.

 

[Senethro]

You can test this out yourself.. disable all security software on your computer and you will with no doubt get some type of virus', malware, rootkits, and other stuff over time even if you browse fairly safe websites and do nothing that would seem to be dangerous.

Luckily, the majority of computer user's have more common sense than to listen to such a thing by Valve.

People in general should never listen to advice from a DRM program anyways.

I was asking about the interpretation, not about the obvious risks. Read a bit more carefully.

 

[tom2050]

I was asking about the interpretation, not about the obvious risks. Read a bit more carefully.

Doing what I suggested will prove that the interpretation was more correct.

 

[Shakes]

You can test this out yourself.. disable all security software on your computer and you will with no doubt get some type of virus', malware, rootkits, and other stuff over time even if you browse fairly safe websites and do nothing that would seem to be dangerous.

Is 15 years a long enough test? Because that's how long I've been on the internet without anti-virus software and never had any problems. The last time I got a virus is came on a floppy disk.

 

[Senethro]

Doing what I suggested will prove that the interpretation was more correct.

You're still not reading. I'm not disputing what happens. I'm disputing the Anti-Steam crowds selective reading that a tech support article is general advice that is unreservedly endorsed.

 

[mjs0]

Is 15 years a long enough test? Because that's how long I've been on the internet without anti-virus software and never had any problems. The last time I got a virus is came on a floppy disk.

Whilst I do run AV (Currently MS Security Essentials) I have also never in that same 15 years had a genuine positive detection on any of my systems.

That said there is nothing anyone can say that would persuade me to connect one of my computer directly to the internet without either a firewall or being behind a NAT router.
As I said above...I tried it once by accident with my Dad's reinstall...never again.

 

[The_J]

Is 15 years a long enough test? Because that's how long I've been on the internet without anti-virus software and never had any problems. The last time I got a virus is came on a floppy disk.

If you don't have AV software, you'll not notice, if your computer is infected .
There can be tons of viruses on your computer, sending spam into the world, and you will not notice it.

I was asking about the interpretation, not about the obvious risks.

Then what's your interpretation? Sorry, i can't see another way to interpret it.

Sure, if they said: Unplug the computer from the net, and then for testing disable that stuff, that would be completly fine, that's an advice i also would give, but not saying: Completly uninstall your completly computer safety software, and then go online like before.

 

[tom2050]

Is 15 years a long enough test? Because that's how long I've been on the internet without anti-virus software and never had any problems. The last time I got a virus is came on a floppy disk.

Exactly, how would you know if you have a virus, when you run no AV products at all in the last 15 years. That is not a good argument you just made.

Whilst I do run AV (Currently MS Security Essentials) I have also never in that same 15 years had a genuine positive detection on any of my systems.

There were virus spreading from CFC some time ago (so I've heard).. to say you have never had a malware, virus, rootkit, spyware, pop-up, or any other type of thing happen that should not... means you do not get on the internet or send email.

Otherwise, with normal browsing, you should be a millionare selling your secret of how to stay free from such things with minimal security precautions being taken.

You're still not reading. I'm not disputing what happens. I'm disputing the Anti-Steam crowds selective reading that a tech support article is general advice that is unreservedly endorsed.

The only thing you are arguing is that Valve is correct in the statement that you are safe from everything malicious online with no security intact while playing Steam Games. This is false and to argue it is true just because you like Steam is a bit on the irresponsible side. I bet virus programmers love it that you are saying what you are saying.

Turning off AV is one thing to install something.. but to have to disable it to run a program is another. Valve should fix Steam instead of putting it's members at risk of malicious programs and attacks from online in order to play a game.

 

[azzaman333]

The problem is this



As I said, its standard troubleshooting advice, but the way they advise people with problems on this page (and it has some more to say about specific programs) is bad advice. This is phrased in a way to ensure that a user with little knowledge about their computer is tempted to keep the antivir software off while being online with the Steam client. This is mostly some tech support person being stupid - but its still the official advice for people experiencing problems with antivirus software.

Note: they are telling people to change some settings, but failing that they do not advise changing the AV (which by the way can be quite costly or in some cases not a possiblity) they tell them to either disable or even uninstall it. To reiterate, its just bad advice.

Now: it is quite likely a non-issue for most people, but there are apparently quite a few commercially available anti-virus packages out there that do or at least have in the past interfere(d) with the Steam client's execution. Advising users to go without AV while being online is a sign of a tech support not actually caring about the consequences of such action (though frankly, its not terribly bad compared to other FAQ type advice by other gaming companies - they tend to just post advice written for specific support tickets without terribly much editorial review).

Edit: as for the firewall thing, I don't actually agree that the steam client is off the hook there either, mostly because of this page:



that is quite a bunch of firewall and other safety related programs that by their own advice might need to be removed from the computer or at least disabled - again, its likely just a compilation of individual problems, but telling users to remove/disable their firewall and/or antivirus software for a program that is mostly used online is not good advice - especially since those users unwary enough to follow this advice are likely those that have not kept their OS updated either, so they are the ones most likely to be adversely affected by this advice.

I run AVG and Zone Alarm and yet have never had a problem with Steam.

 

[azzaman333]

If you don't have AV software, you'll not notice, if your computer is infected .
There can be tons of viruses on your computer, sending spam into the world, and you will not notice it.

I've never got a virus in ~5 years of heavy use of the internet. I do run an anti-virus, but it doesn't do anything.

 

[The_J]

You might maybe be an advanced user with some brain .
But also this does not prevent you from getting something, so better you have one .
My AV software has in the past sometimes alarmed me. Some things have been intentional, some not, and it's just good to have one, because it just helps you by doing accidentally something stupid.

Also an AV software will only react, if there's already someting on your computer. There are lots of hazardous things out there, which don't have to infect your machine.

 

[Senethro]

You guys are just interpreting it in the way that best fits with your view that STeam is a bad thing and that most users lack the common sense to tell the difference between a specific tech support article and general advice.

It is entirely reasonable in articles relating to firewalls limiting Steam connectivity and Anti-Virus interfering with Steam to suggest these as stopgap solutions. In medicine, patients with blood clotting problems are given rat poison and those in extreme pain are given heroin. Neither heroin or rat poison should be administered to a healthy patient, yet that is what you guys are saying.

Quoting myself for toms benefit.

Summary: Tech support != general advice to be always followed like you guys are claiming.

The only thing you are arguing is that Valve is correct in the statement that you are safe from everything malicious online with no security intact while playing Steam Games. This is false and to argue it is true just because you like Steam is a bit on the irresponsible side. I bet virus programmers love it that you are saying what you are saying.

I think I know better what I meant when I typed than you do. That you're telling me different is very arrogant. Its difficult to assume good faith on your part.

Turning off AV is one thing to install something.. but to have to disable it to run a program is another. Valve should fix Steam instead of putting it's members at risk of malicious programs and attacks from online in order to play a game.

They're not suggesting this as a standard practice. Thats why its on a tech support page.

 

[Commander Bello]

I've never got a virus in ~5 years of heavy use of the internet. I do run an anti-virus, but it doesn't do anything.

So, why do you run it then?

 

[azzaman333]

So, why do you run it then?

Can't be bothered uninstalling it. It takes up very little space, costs no money, and uses a very small percentage of my computers resources. It's not really worth the effort to remove.

 

[tom2050]

I think I know better what I meant when I typed than you do. That you're telling me different is very arrogant. Its difficult to assume good faith on your part.

I have to disagree that you know better what you mean than I know what you meant.

Speak for yourself, you quoted Half of what I wrote earlier, and left out a key part of my statement, to strengthen your own argument. I wasn't surprised by it, but in those regards the same you just said reflects right back on yourself.

You are still defending Valve and the no-security aspect of their advice. Why? No one knows.

Of course, it's easy to say " I haven't had anything malicious and anything that I didn't want on my computer at all for the last 35 years! Ever! "

Anti-Virus programs do not pick up or detect many threats. So even if your AV shows a clean system, you may still have a rootkit, malware, and many other programs and not know it.

But for that to be the case to never have had anything, you would have to never have been on the internet.. or you have a Mac. For Windows and regular browsing, it is just not the case, and everyone knows it.

 

[Rebel44]

Do you mind to explain how to be not online while being in online mode?

Furthermore (a question which has just come up in the FAQ-thread), how do you make use of the mod-browser when not being online?

Real life example:

I often use notebook and when I have internet available I start Steam in online mode. When I have to move somewhere else, I put OS into hibernation and later I can wake it up and Steam will continue to work in Online mode. One of my THQ games wont start in offline mode and this is workaround to play it offline.

Same apply to PC if you have Steam in online mode and you pull its ethernet cable, as long as what you do with Steam doesnt require it to communicate with server (istallation, update etc.) there wont be any difference from being online.