Civilization 5 Rants Thread

[Iranon]

Technologically sophisticated eye candy isn't necessary for a good game... it's not even necessary for looking good. Stark minimalism can look stylish, and military-focused games have it easy. Defcon looks perfect, recreations of period-appropriate maps work equally well etc.
And that's without involving gaming nostalgia - hand-drawn EGA can look wonderful... and some can perform miracles with ASCII (well, more often code page 437).

*

Anyway, still don't like the look of that particular game very much. But it's looks probably won't get in the way if the gameplay is convincing.

 

[Thormodr]

Technologically sophisticated eye candy isn't necessary for a good game... it's not even necessary for looking good. Stark minimalism can look stylish, and military-focused games have it easy. Defcon looks perfect, recreations of period-appropriate maps work equally well etc.
And that's without involving gaming nostalgia - hand-drawn EGA can look wonderful... and some can perform miracles with ASCII (well, more often code page 437).

*

Anyway, still don't like the look of that particular game very much. But it's looks probably won't get in the way if the gameplay is convincing.

Fair enough. Everyone has their own tastes. I suppose the graphics for Pride of Nations are an acquired taste. I find them elegant anyway.

These are alpha screenshots though so the graphics may be different upon release.

I will say though that if that game had the latest 3D graphics it would run horribly slow and literally kill most systems since it has, what's the word for it....ummm...depth?

Anyway, AGEOD targets a totally different audience than Civilization 5 or most other games these days. (ie Ritalin deprived teenagers. ) AGEOD is targeting old grognards who love wargames. I used to play old wargames like World in Flames, Pacific War, Nato Nukes and Nazis, etc for boardgames. I also loved the V for Victory series back in the day on the computer.

Suffice to say, most of these old grognards favour substance over style. Just glad there are still middle market game developers out there that make quality games still.

Firaxis seems to have abandoned the middle market and will be destined to make fluff games from now on. Great looking games with crappy AI and little depth. Sort of like the Total War Series. Pity.

 

[Acronym2]

Thormodr, I'm going to have a little look at AGEOD as I don't think I've heard much about them but your comments have piqued my curiousity. However, I would agree with you about some of the "Grognards" seeking solice through older game titles and some of the more "oldfashioned" game companies that have a little different focus than the way companies like THQ, Sega, and 2K Games are heading. Indeed, I enjoyed the Total War Series until Empire Total War killed my interest for anything beyond Medieval II.

In some ways, I look at the period of 1996 to about 2008 as being a "golden age" of PC gaming. Tactical and strategic depth, re-playability, modability, stability, and a focus on the best graphics possible with greatest economy of system resources became the right balance needed to attract a long-term customer fanbase..........and a long-term fanbase meant everything to a successful game series.

One of the things I find incredible about Civ5 is the recommended system requirements. It seems a little rediculous for a Civ-type strategy game to need all that. One could easily run two games of Medieval II Total War with all settings maxed out and still have resources to spare. Yet, a strategy game like Civilization doesn't really need the kind of 3d graphic detail one finds in games like Total War. Although with 1UPT and 1Gig of video memory/ 4G RAM, I do feel the developers could have delivered a lot more "bang for the buck" in terms of depth and detail than what they actually produced.

 

[Thormodr]

Thormodr, I'm going to have a little look at AGEOD as I don't think I've heard much about them but your comments have piqued my curiousity. However, I would agree with you about some of the "Grognards" seeking solice through older game titles and some of the more "oldfashioned" game companies that have a little different focus than the way companies like THQ, Sega, and 2K Games are heading. Indeed, I enjoyed the Total War Series until Empire Total War killed my interest for anything beyond Medieval II.

In some ways, I look at the period of 1996 to about 2008 as being a "golden age" of PC gaming. Tactical and strategic depth, re-playability, modability, stability, and a focus on the best graphics possible with greatest economy of system resources became the right balance needed to attract a long-term customer fanbase..........and a long-term fanbase meant everything to a successful game series.

One of the things I find incredible about Civ5 is the recommended system requirements. It seems a little rediculous for a Civ-type strategy game to need all that. One could easily run two games of Medieval II Total War with all settings maxed out and still have resources to spare. Yet, a strategy game like Civilization doesn't really need the kind of 3d graphic detail one finds in games like Total War. Although with 1UPT and 1Gig of video memory/ 4G RAM, I do feel the developers could have delivered a lot more "bang for the buck" in terms of depth and detail than what they actually produced.

Yes, I agree with you entirely.

AGEOD looks really promising. They are a small company dedicated to making awesome games for a niche audience. It's like it used to be.

Many companies have lost that focus in an effort to go mainstream/mass market and have concentrated heavily on graphics over gameplay. We all heard the marketing push for Civilization 5 that trumpeted the graphics and we all heard Jon Shafer say that it wasn't economical to make a good AI. Civilization is merely a fluff game now. You certainly aren't getting bang for your buck.

Now, this Pride of Nations that I am excited about. It looks to have many, many hours of gameplay. It looks very, very deep and complex. It'll take a long, long time to master and yet it's only $20. It also will have many scenarios of conflicts that have either been largely ignored or completely forgotten. The best part is I'll be gaining insight into why history unfolded as it did.

For anyone's reading pleasure, here are a list of developer diaries and daily updates for Pride of Nations. They really keep you in the loop as to what's going on, unlike some game companies we know.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?536647-Repository-for-Developer-Diaries-and-Daily-Updates

These graphics are good enough for me. A much better earth map than Firaxis ever made anyway.

 

[Acronym2]

We all heard the marketing push for Civilization 5 that trumpeted the graphics

Yes, and yet the Civ5 graphics don't look all that impressive. Especially when one considers that it takes 1Gig of video memory to run them. Good graphics are almost a neccessity for a PC game......but they should fit within the context of the game rather than the game being fit to the context of the 3d graphics.

I just visited Paradox Games a few hours ago in order to have a look at Pride of Nations and found alot of other interesting titles as well. (Perhaps I'll visit AGEOD tomorrow.) I had forgotten about companies like Paradox, Matrix, etc., while following the Total War, DOW, COH, and CivIV moding sites. It is quite nice to see several dozen available titles listed rather than just three or four.

I think some of the naysayers who insist PC gaming needs to go the way of Steam/Civ5/Empire/DOW II in order to survive are missing another part of the picture and are too easily sold by clever public relations/mass marketing techniques. Companies like Paradox or Matrix seem to produce two or three new titles and/or expansions to every one that THQ or 2K Games makes. Some of them just as graphically detailed 3d-wise as those of any other game company.

I must thank you, Thormodr, for reminding me about some of these other great PC game companies that I have overlooked for the past few years. Certainly I will be watching them a little more closely these days.

 

[Thormodr]

Yes, and yet the Civ5 graphics don't look all that impressive. Especially when one considers that it takes 1Gig of video memory to run them. Good graphics are almost a neccessity for a PC game......but they should fit within the context of the game rather than the game being fit to the context of the 3d graphics.

I just visited Paradox Games a few hours ago in order to have a look at Pride of Nations and found alot of other interesting titles as well. (Perhaps I'll visit AGEOD tomorrow.) I had forgotten about companies like Paradox, Matrix, etc., while following the Total War, DOW, COH, and CivIV moding sites. It is quite nice to see several dozen available titles listed rather than just three or four.

I think some of the naysayers who insist PC gaming needs to go the way of Steam/Civ5/Empire/DOW II in order to survive are missing another part of the picture and are too easily sold by clever public relations/mass marketing techniques. Companies like Paradox or Matrix seem to produce two or three new titles and/or expansions to every one that THQ or 2K Games makes. Some of them just as graphically detailed 3d-wise as those of any other game company.

I must thank you, Thormodr, for reminding me about some of these other great PC game companies that I have overlooked for the past few years. Certainly I will be watching them a little more closely these days.

Good insights there.

Civilization 5 has nice graphics all right but not something that you would make a centerpiece out of. Too many game companies are caught up in trying to top each other graphically instead of just making great games.

I am glad that you have rediscovered these companies. In a way, the disastrous Civilization 5 has been a blessing in disguise for myself and many others. It has opened our eyes to so many other possibilities. Happy to have helped.

 

[JohnnyW]

I am glad that you have rediscovered these companies. In a way, the disastrous Civilization 5 has been a blessing in disguise for myself and many others. It has opened our eyes to so many other possibilities. Happy to have helped.

I found EU3 and purchased it (HTTT) for $6 because of these forums. I wouldn't have come here if I hadn't spent $50 on civ5.

I would much rather have reversed those numbers.

 

[Acronym2]

I'll be damned! I did the very same thing yesterday while surfing Paradox Interactive after reading Thormodr's post. Although I decided to buy the Europa Universalis III Chronicles that was released just this year with the two or three expansions included for $29.00. (JohnnyW, you may want to take a look at that over at http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/europa-universalis-iii-chronicles and this other one looks interesting too http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/europa-universalis-rome-gold)

I had been curious about EU as it always seemed to look interesting and thought I might like it. The screenshots look nice although I wish that they could make something like that and combine it with the tactical battle system as one finds in Medieval II or Rome Total war.

By the way, does anyone know of some good EUIII moding sites? I would like to take a peak at what their fanbase is doing with the game.

 

[Thormodr]

I'll be damned! I did the very same thing yesterday while surfing Paradox Interactive after reading Thormodr's post. Although I decided to buy the Europa Universalis III Chronicles that was released just this year with the two or three expansions included for $29.00. (JohnnyW, you may want to take a look at that over at http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/europa-universalis-iii-chronicles and this other one looks interesting too http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/europa-universalis-rome-gold)

I had been curious about EU as it always seemed to look interesting and thought I might like it. The screenshots look nice although I wish that they could make something like that and combine it with the tactical battle system as one finds in Medieval II or Rome Total war.

By the way, does anyone know of some good EUIII moding sites? I would like to take a peak at what their fanbase is doing with the game.

Here is the mod page for EU3. Magna Mundi is very impressive. It adds a lot to the game in terms of depth and complexity. I don't believe they have a version for the latest expansion Divine Wind yet though. I have heard good things about MEIOU as well but I haven't tried that one.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?357-EU3-User-Modification

 

[Kaosprophet]

Now, this Pride of Nations that I am excited about. It looks to have many, many hours of gameplay. It looks very, very deep and complex. It'll take a long, long time to master and yet it's only $20.

Meh.

I'm more interested in Sword of the Stars 2, by the same company. Less complexity, but similar depth.

 

[Thormodr]

Meh.

I'm more interested in Sword of the Stars 2, by the same company. Less complexity, but similar depth.

I'm not as much of a sci fi fan to be honest but it does look excellent.

I am more of a history buff/grognard myself.

 

[Thormodr]

Here is an excellent thread that has many game suggestions for people less than enchanted with Civilization 5.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10497155#post10497155

I fear I have taken this thread off topic by not ranting enough and talking about other games that are potential interest to people.

My apologies.

 

[Acronym2]

Although.........a primary reason for our examination of other game company titles is because of our perception that 2k Games gave us the shaft rather than simply a "big sloppy kiss" with Civ5, Steam and DLC. So perhaps we are still relevant to the thread's topic? Besides, any intelligent debate over Civ5 needs to compare it to the games of other companies as well as CivIV.

A correction to my earlier post: Europa Universalis III Chronicles includes all four expansions. I have to admit that after looking through the EU fansite, wiki, and watching a few videos; I'm really looking forward to playing and moding it once it arrives in the mail.

One of the things I find interesting about the expansions is that they seem to patch over the entire game. I hadn't realize anyone was doing it like that, but always considered making expansions that patched in such manner would be ideal. How many times have we loved the new features of a particular game expansion but never went back to play earlier campaigns and scenarios because the improved gameplay/features wouldn't be there?

 

[Thormodr]

Although.........a primary reason for our examination of other game company titles is because of our perception that 2k Games gave us the shaft rather than a "big sloppy kiss" with Civ5 and Steam. So perhaps we are still in relation to the thread's purpose? Besides, any intelligent debate over Civ5 needs to compare it to the games of other companies as well as CivIV.

A correction to my earlier post: Europa Universalis III Chronicles includes all four expansions. I have to admit that after looking through the EU fansite, wiki, and watching a few videos; I'm really forward to playing and moding it once it arrives in the mail.

One of the things I find interesting about the expansions is that they seem to patch over the entire game. I hadn't realize anyone was doing it like that but always felt having such a system would be ideal. How many times have we loved the new features of a particular game expansion but wouldn't go back and play earlier campagns and scenarios because the improved gameplay/features wouldn't be there?

I didn't realize that it had all four expansions. That's a heck of a deal.

As far as "big sloppy kisses" go, what a crock of crap that was.

 

[Acronym2]

Yes, Europa Universalis III with all four expansions on DVD and for only $29.95! Paradox just released it in March of this year, so I stumbled into EU at just about the right time.

LOL! That "big sloppy kiss" press release by Jon Schaefer did ring in my mind like he was trying too hard and laying it on too thick. Then again, perhaps we give him more criticism than is his do. Firaxis isn't the same kind of company as we thought of it several years ago when Sid Meiers and Brian Reynolds started it. The staff at Firaxis, to include Sid himself, are now basically employees of 2k Games and do not appear to have anything near the autonomy that existed some years ago.

 

[Psyringe]

LOL! That "big sloppy kiss" press release by Jon Schaefer did ring in my mind like he was trying too hard and laying it on too thick.

The quote doesn't originate from a press release by Jon Shafer, but from an interview with Dennis Shirk. That probably doesn't affect the point you were making, but I wanted to put it right nevertheless (sorry for the nitpicking).

 

[Acronym2]

Oh, yes........you are correct! Shirk/Schaefer, I guess one could easily get that mixed up and yes my point is still valid but I hate to come so dangerously close to looking like a jackass.

 

[Thormodr]

Yes, Europa Universalis III with all four expansions on DVD and for only $29.95! Paradox just released it in March of this year, so I stumbled into EU at just about the right time.

LOL! That "big sloppy kiss" press release by Jon Schaefer did ring in my mind like he was trying too hard and laying it on too thick. Then again, perhaps we give him more criticism than is his do. Firaxis isn't the same kind of company as we thought of it several years ago when Sid Meiers and Brian Reynolds started it. The staff at Firaxis, to include Sid himself, are now basically employees of 2k Games and do not appear to have anything near the autonomy that existed some years ago.

You are right on that. 2K Games has been like a huge lode stone.

Definitely the worst thing that ever happened to the Civilization franchise.

 

[Dale]

Civilization 5 was a tremendous letdown and a wake up call that they don't give a damn about their long time fans anymore. Shame...

I've been playing Paradox interactive games to scratch that gaming itch.

Mostly Victoria II and EU III. Their games aren't perfect either but they sure are fun. Crusader Kings II is going to be fantastic.

I've also discovered a French gaming company called AGEOD that has been making quality games for a long time. They are a small company that was recently bought by Paradox. Anyway, they certainly aren't targeting the mass market and casuals.

Their games are military focused and very well done if that is your type of thing.

A game called Pride of Nations is coming out June 7th. Although it only takes place between 1850-1920, it is turn based (1680 turns in all) and it looks deep, complex and very fun. Certainly the military element and warfare will be excellent but the other areas like empire building, colonization and economics look very strong as well.

The graphics are, at least in my opinion, elegant, clear and remind me of old boardgames I used to play. Very pleasing to the eyes I think. They are also 2D and easy on mid range laptops.

Some pretty cool scenarios will also be included including the American Civil War, the Russian-Japanese War, the Franco-Prussian War, possibly the First World War and others.

Also, the game will only be $20. Quite a bargain methinks.

Here's a screenshot (Original name was going to be Vainglory of nations):

*removed as it's hideous*

Here are their forums:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=250

You can also check them out on the Paradox interactive forums:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?558-Pride-of-Nations

Your post reads very much like a marketing speil. Thank you Paradox marketing rep.

Moderator Action: we are operating a very strict policy about calling other users marketing reps, in that we disallow any such accusation. The Civ5 Forum Notice Board spells this out for accusing other users of working for 2KGames etc. but this equally applies to your post.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Thormodr]

Your post reads very much like a marketing speil. Thank you Paradox marketing rep.

I most certainly do not work for Paradox or AGEOD. I am not a beta tester either. There is no motive of any kind on my part except that I think that AGEOD is one of the "good guys" and deserves the exposure. A small gaming company that still makes quality games and genuinely cares about their customers. Something that Firaxis seems to have forgotten in their quest to go mass market/casual.
I was merely letting other people know about a game that will be released soon that has tremendous potential. It looks like it will accurately portray 19th century history fairly well. Perhaps that's not your thing.

I see you are fixated on the graphics. Personally, I'd much rather have a game that has depth, realism and great re playability over something like Civilization 5 that really has none of that yet sports pretty nice graphics. Substance over style. I think the graphics are fine for the game and do exactly what they are supposed to do. Convey information properly. Also, it's nice to see an earth map that looks decent rather than Firaxis' repeated bungled attempts.

By the way, it's spiel not speil.