Civilization 5

If there existed an AI that could do everything I wanted to do with a stack of units depending on the circumstances, that would be the case; there does not, that I know of. Even with something as simple as the Civ 3 model, there's the issue of trying to wound enemy units with your veterans but kill them with your elites, to maximise opportunities for a Military Great Leader. There's what you do with the units left in a stack if you have overjudged and you win the fight that the stack is engaged in at the beginning of the turn two-thirds of the way through that turn. And so on; the more sophisticated Civ 5 is, the more options there might be here.

You can still tell individual units where to go. You can even tell individual units to attack if you like, although the success or failure of that may depend on the battle system you construct around armies. Things are just less clunky.

If you think repeating that bit of your post answers my point, we're talking past each other, so let me try again

The question is not "you can still tell individual units where to go." It's that if there are going to be, as IME there often are, numerous occasions when I do need to tell individual units what to do, what is the point in me putting them in an army in the first place when I am only going to be giving them indvidual orders agin and again and again down the line ?

Regardless you are ignoring the potential that there could be other interesting strategic questions to answer with armies that are not present with individual units. What those questions would be would depend on the system you use.
If we look at games with armies or fleets (in the case of Gal Civ) I would say that, compared to Civ, I find war to be more enjoyable and no less strategically interesting..

I'm willing to be persuaded here; have you any specific examples in mind ?
 
I can not believe how much discussion over something so small. Look Civ 5 needs something new. It needs to more options to have some real tactics in battle. Not squares and one unit at a time beat the other to a pulp, or spearman even having a chance against a tank. There needs to be some tactial map for a battle.

Dude, no there doesn't. Tactical battle maps are for people who like tactical battle games. Civ is not and has never been a tactical battle game. "Squares and one unit at a time beat the other to a pulp" is the whole point for people want to win by building and managing a better empire such that they have better logistics and better grand strategy and do not have to care about tactics.
 
Well I certainly would not bother if nothing added. Sorry a small tactical maps is doable and does not have to be used by you. You should be able to click the simplify button and be done with it. I really would not like people who are stuck on the square model and stacks to ruin it for others would want to play a game that is not dumbed down. I am tired of playing the whole series with a square and the stack. If there is nothing new in Civ5 that adds more I will not be buying Civ5. Sid can sit on his throne and recall the good old days with old timers then. I will be playing something else. Like I think most will be as well.
 
If you think repeating that bit of your post answers my point, we're talking past each other, so let me try again

The question is not "you can still tell individual units where to go." It's that if there are going to be, as IME there often are, numerous occasions when I do need to tell individual units what to do, what is the point in me putting them in an army in the first place when I am only going to be giving them indvidual orders agin and again and again down the line ?

In order to answer that question I would need more specifics on how exactly the battle system in Civ 5 would look with armies.

For example, in many games with armies attacking an army of 10 units with 1 unit is a suicide run that gains you nothing. In situations like this maintaining individual units throughout your empire is a waste of resources, and you are better off concentrating your forces in a few large armies. In this situation moving individual units around would mostly be done when you produce a new unit and wish to move it to an army, or if you need to shift strength between armies. For example, if one army is 10 units and the other is 8, and you would prefer two 9's you could send one from the 10 to the 8.

Another way of looking at it is to consider group movement in Civ 4. You take units in and out of groups right? Well imagine now that groups are clearly listed and organized, and that you can easily shift units from one group to another. That's a basic army system right there.

I'm willing to be persuaded here; have you any specific examples in mind ?

The most relevant one I have experience with is probably CtP, Civ's bastard cousin. In that game you could group units into armies as large as 12 (I think, memory's a bit fuzzy.) When two armies fought infantry units would line up across from each other, with cavalry on the wings and artillery in the back. Units could only attack units directly in front of them. If one army was larger than the other army the cavalry could "flank" which basically meant you got an extra 2 units to attack with. All this was done automatically by the computer.

Attacking a single unit with an army of 1 infantry, 2 cav and 1 artillery then meant that you would have all 4 units attacking that 1 unit at the same time, which in turn meant that you would win with no losses usually. What this meant was that the current Civ strategy of leaving one or two defensive units in each city was kind of a waste. Those units were just going to die if attacked by a real army. In comparison in Civ they would probably kill a couple attackers before they were worn down.

So questions you can ask yourself are how much artillery should I use? How much cavalry? How much infantry? Do I want all cavalry armies, to take advantage of movement bonuses?

That game also featured artillery bombardment, a bit like Civ III with the collateral damage of Civ IV. So you could sit outside a city, bombard a couple turns, then attack.

The Paradox games (like Europa Universalis) work basically the same way, except that you can put as many units in an army as you want. If you have 100 regiments you can stick them all in the same province if that's what you want. The downside is the attrition system in that game, which penalizes large armies by killing portions of them via disease/starvation. Coupled with a war exhaustion system that led to major revolts if too many troops died during a war this was pretty nasty. Thus you have other interesting questions in addition to those present in CtP. Do I want to combine my forces into one large stack for battle? Or should I split my forces to minimize attrition losses? Should I confront my enemy, or avoid him and hope attrition weakens him?

Then there's the Gal Civ model. In that game fleet size was limited by your logistics technology level. In that game you had to ask yourself the question, "do I want to research another level in weapons tech to get better ships, or another level in logistics to get larger fleets?" You could also ask "do I want a large fleet of small ships, or a small fleet of big ships?"

Then of course in all these games there's the usual strategic concerns, do I concentrate on this front or on that front? Do I concentrate my forces or spread them out?
 
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I wouldn't look for too much insight from CivRev. The reasons for this are two fold:

1. CivRev is different from Civ in a lot of ways.
2. In this particular case, recall that armies were present in Civ 3. From this one might conclude that armies would be in Civ 4. Obviously this was not the case.

1. Not that much. The only big difference that players complain about, is the lack of customizability of the map. The other things are pretty improvements to me.
2. I think that Civ4 was so perfected that adding armies in Civ5 would be a logical step. Developers have to invent new things to fit with Civ5. Armies are one of those things.
3. Sid Meier said that CivRev was the game he always wanted to do. I trust him. CivRev must be great, unfortunatelly i don' have my DS with me today.
 
somethings i would like to see is:
1. interplanetary game play a bit like space civ
2. also customizable buildings and units like spore (shape/color not stats)
 
1. Not that much. The only big difference that players complain about, is the lack of customizability of the map. The other things are pretty improvements to me.

I am not saying the game is bad. I'm saying it is different.

And it is. I've played the demo, I know the basics. There are major differences in play mechanics. The way resources are gathered, city radii, the way things like culture and great people work.

It's not just Civ on consoles. It's a whole new game more or less. Civ 5 may borrow some ideas from it but I would certainly think it's going to look more like Civ 4 than Civ Rev.

2. I think that Civ4 was so perfected that adding armies in Civ5 would be a logical step. Developers have to invent new things to fit with Civ5. Armies are one of those things.

This still doesn't adequately address why they were taken out in Civ 4 to begin with. They were present in Civ 3. One can only assume they were removed because the developers didn't like them for some reason.
 
Well I certainly would not bother if nothing added. Sorry a small tactical maps is doable and does not have to be used by you. You should be able to click the simplify button and be done with it.

The thing is, it's a completely different game, and even if I could simplify it out, it's effort taken by the programmers on things other than fun enhancements, and it makes the whole game bigger, which is an isuse for those of us who cannot afford up-to-date computers.

I am tired of playing the whole series with a square and the stack. If there is nothing new in Civ5 that adds more I will not be buying Civ5. Sid can sit on his throne and recall the good old days with old timers then. I will be playing something else. Like I think most will be as well.

I'd be surprised if most people here abandoned Civ 5 over lack of tactical battle games; I think there's any number of other cool new things Civ 5 could have that would make it worth playing.
 
This still doesn't adequately address why they were taken out in Civ 4 to begin with. They were present in Civ 3. One can only assume they were removed because the developers didn't like them for some reason.

Whatever algorithm the AI in Civ 3 was using meant it would essentially never attack an army, for one thing; taking armies out is a typically Civ 4 wrong-scale "solution" to this problem.
 
In order to answer that question I would need more specifics on how exactly the battle system in Civ 5 would look with armies.

Fine; I was just wondering if you had anything specific in mind.

Another way of looking at it is to consider group movement in Civ 4. You take units in and out of groups right? Well imagine now that groups are clearly listed and organized, and that you can easily shift units from one group to another. That's a basic army system right there.

If all you want it for is grouping units to move together, that seems eminently sensible to me.

The most relevant one I have experience with is probably CtP, Civ's bastard cousin. In that game you could group units into armies as large as 12 (I think, memory's a bit fuzzy.) When two armies fought infantry units would line up across from each other, with cavalry on the wings and artillery in the back. Units could only attack units directly in front of them. If one army was larger than the other army the cavalry could "flank" which basically meant you got an extra 2 units to attack with. All this was done automatically by the computer.

This is unappealing to me because again it feels like a tactical rather than strategic level.

Then there's the Gal Civ model. In that game fleet size was limited by your logistics technology level. In that game you had to ask yourself the question, "do I want to research another level in weapons tech to get better ships, or another level in logistics to get larger fleets?" You could also ask "do I want a large fleet of small ships, or a small fleet of big ships?"

The latter seems to be something Civ navies already do to an extent, and could be implemented on land along with the former by a judicious choice of unit types, unit build costs, and mechanism for unit support, rather than needing any completely new mechanism to bring about.
 
This still doesn't adequately address why they were taken out in Civ 4 to begin with. They were present in Civ 3. One can only assume they were removed because the developers didn't like them for some reason.

Well, you have to say it fast. Armies in Civ3 were not generalized. They were exceptions. Plus, they were limited. To me, they were not more present in Civ3 than in Civ4, where you still can attach a warlord to a unit.

Real armies may come with the ability to create them anytime, with few limitations.
 
i think one cool thing to do would be to make different resources effect unit strength i.e. u can make an axeman w/ copper but it wouldent be as strong as an iorn axeman
u could also do this with technology (japanese katanas were awesome swords but they took really advanced steelworking techniques) make a point on every/some technology that u have to get to if u want to advance along the tech tree, but if u want u can keep researching the technology: i researched iron working for 10 turns instead of the required 5 so my swordsman have a strength of seven instead of the base six
more resources would make the resource part of this morefun
 
USAwesome, first off, love your name. Secondly, i want your idea to be in action. Throughout history governments have paid more to get their soldiers better equipment. Like the british paid for the expensive red uniforms to be fierce image on the battlefield. And the US paid for highly effective camouflage. So, really, civs should be able to invest in battlefield techniques for better results.
 
I disagree, because I feel that even one UU is skewing the options for style of play available to that civ.

Which is exactly why you add more. Right now, with 1 UU, style of play is somewhat dictated by your civ choice. If you're the Persians, a major part of their style of play is being able to attack early with the Immortals. With the Romans, a huge part of their style is utilizing the Praetorians. The same applies with many of the other civs - Egyptians & War Chariots, Sumerians & Vultures, Ethiopians & Oromo Warriors, etc.

By giving each civ 2 or 3 unique units, you no longer are pidgeonholing the playstyle of that civ to utilizing a military force at that specific time period. A Player using the Persians would not feel the need to attack in force early, if they had another UU coming up in Medieval era, for example. While attacking early with Immortals would still be a great option, it leaves the door open.

Again, I don't feel that the game ought to be saturated with unique units. That would really destroy the entire purpose of them. That's why each civ ought to have 2-3...as that still leaves the majority of the game to be played with the generic units, but it also leaves some options open to the player.
 
I hope this has been suggested but I hope to see Italy as a Civilization not just Rome, Holy Rome, and Byzantium.
 
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