Civilizations Based on Ethno-Cultures

[Finisus777]

Have civilizations based on ethno-cultures instead of actual nations, especially because nationalism is a relatively new thing compared to cultures. Let more than one player be of the same "race", but have them pick different names, etc.

For example, ancient Greece. Athens and Sparta fought a war. In Civ3, Athens and Sparta would never fight a war. In my model, though, you could choose Hellenic for your race/culture, and then name your country however you want - Sparta, Athens, or n0bz0GreCoMaN.

Another example, modern Europe. Britain, France, Germany. They're all Germanic. A lot of people complain about how racist the Civ developers are. Why not just combine Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. into one "Germanic" race/culture.

Also, the whole leader thing is kind of disturbing. When I'm charting my civilization's progression from 4000 BC to AD 2050, I think it's kind of weird to be lead by Mahatma and have him set all my stuff, instead of the fact that I'm leading India to set all my stuff - or maybe it's the fact that societies tend to go back and forth between glorious war and glorious peace.

 

[mastertyguy]

Welcome to CFC

Another example, modern Europe. Britain, France, Germany. They're all Germanic. A lot of people complain about how racist the Civ developers are. Why not just combine Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. into one "Germanic" race/culture.

aha, no. I don't know the others (I don't mind the others), but France is latin, like Spain and Italy.

 

[Finisus777]

That's the only problem I can think of, is when people of one race adopt the culture of another. France is Germanic in all but language. :/

 

[Urederra]

I suppose that Northern France is Germanic and Southern France is latin/(mediterranean-european)

 

[Superkrest]

that would make an awsome side game or scenerio..but it really complicates the game...i have a feeling you would end up with a few super nations who spent the last 1000 years eating up the surrounding sub cultures

 

[Corvex]

Well, it does make things more fair. Consider it; in stead of having every little nation in Europe represented, you have the Germanics (England, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Germany and Austria), the Latins (Spain, Portugal, France and Italy), the Slavs (Russia, Hungary, Romania, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovakia, et cetera) as well as the Greeks and the Celts. Based more upon ethnicity/language/cultural similarities than mere political differences. Likewise with other continents; large language groups of native North Americans for example (such as the Algonquians) could constitute entire civs.

 

[Superkrest]

yeah that would make alot of sense...i always have trouble with the "you have been choosen to lead the russians...." in 4000 bc...i dont even know what they refered to themselves then..it wasnt russian..but slav would be more appropriate

 

[Sickman]

France is Germanic in all but language.

That argument can hold water in argument about first ten seconds.
But let's not go in there now...

IMHO there should be civilizations just like they are now. The main thing is that people recognice these civilizations. If someone says "greek culture" people know what they are talking about but if you say "hellenistic culture" I'm pretty sure there are many that have no idea.

Your system would lead into endless argument of who is who in Europe and who is ancestor of who. Some seem to have so perfect clarity in their mind "where they come from" (which is rather interesting, one might say even humorous) and there are many people example in Europe that belong to certain language group but from genetic point of view are from somewhere else where they should be based into their language.

I strongly support the idea keeping the current system BUT I would rather see ethnical and cultural diversity withing the civilizations. Example Greece could have city states at some era in the game and more "unified" later. Then example France civilization could adopt German and English culturepoints at the same time keeping their own roots intact. So instead of changing culture from one to another they would mix together.
So that way example modern United States would have many cultures and ethnical groups inside the civilization instead of having only american-culture and even multiple religions.

This of course would lead into many interesting and concepts as immigration, civil wars, autonomy, ethnical equality etc.
But this is idea of the future rather than current one because it would mean major overhaul to the whole idea of culture in the game. And after all simplistic idea of culture didn't appear until Civ 3 in which it was very simple model.

For me most important thing is to have wide variety of different and well known "civilizations" that represent certain empire of particular time. And above all civilizations that "symbolize" something (political and historical events) and have meaning rather than genetic/cultural/language based civs which have no meaning for people that hardly no history and even less those who actually understand history.

 

[Akka]

France is Germanic in all but language. :/

Is this a joke ? 0_o

 

[Sickman]

Is this a joke ? 0_o

LOL, Akka, I was very much waiting you to appear here right after I read that sentence by Finisus777.

 

[mitsho]

@akka We don't want to start this discussion again, do we?
@Finisus777 You can reread this discussion in a thread called 'Napoleon?!' (or something alike, I think Napoleon was written in a false way)

and a big NO to this idea: The players want a grip to hold onto, and these ethno-civilizations wouldn't provide this. Besides, they would start a lot of controversy and would be imbalanced imho.

For another game-concept than civ, this would be a neat idea nevertheless.

mfG mitsho

 

[Akka]

@akka We don't want to start this discussion again, do we?

Well, we might disagree about Franks being the ancestors of both French and German culture, or being just the beginning of French culture. But even though I consider that the answer is quite clear, there is arguments for both sides, and there is quite a lot of informations to get to clear it up.

But now, saying that the French culture is actually more germanic than latin...
THAT, is simply laughable. Please. It's a whole other league.

 

[mastertyguy]

I prfer the old system. And France, in my opinion, is Latin, or Celtic at th really really extrem limit (because I've seen in a documentary movie something like France descends from Gauls and are Celtic in a way, but I am not sure, and I am certainly not an expert ), but certainly not Germanic.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey, here's an idea-lets make ALL of the Civs come from the African Culture group. After all, if you go back far enough, thats where we all originally came from!!
I think it is just a HELL of a lot easier to make culture groups based on the real-world placement of the civs in question. So Spain, Rome and Carthage (and possibly Greece as well) would be Mediterannean, Germany, France, Britain and Scandanavia would be Western European and Russia would be Eastern European (though Greece could be considered East European too-due to their Orthodox Christian beliefs). The point is that this would define that nations 'Culture Group', which would be of importance in diplomatic and secession terms.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, what essentially divides France from Germany is that-historically-France can draw its links back to the Roman Empire, as it was a Vassal of the Empire for so many centuries (this, too, is what links France, Britain and Spain). The so-called Aryan peoples-such as Germany, Sweden and Norway, OTOH, were never fully Romanicised-and so developed along a very different path to the other European nations.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[CrazyMrLeo]

This is a nifty idea, actually. It certainly lends itself to the much needed feature of Civil War.

 

[Sickman]

Oh, what essentially divides France from Germany is that-historically-France can draw its links back to the Roman Empire, as it was a Vassal of the Empire for so many centuries (this, too, is what links France, Britain and Spain). The so-called Aryan peoples-such as Germany, Sweden and Norway, OTOH, were never fully Romanicised-and so developed along a very different path to the other European nations.

Yes, very much so if you ignore Charlemagne and forget the whole effect of Holy Roman Empire to the European culture and for Germany particularly.

Of course it's hard to tell what "fully romanicising" means. Just look the amount of Roman symbols Nazi Germany carried with them and you may think otherwise even if they are just "small details".

EDIT: And I do agree about the culture groups with Aussie Lurker. However there are problematic civilizations to fit into culture groups, such as Americans. I would say they are European ones because they don't really fit into same category with Native Americans.

 

[Che Guava]

I'm with Aussie_Lurker: make broad culture groups that understand each other better, and maybe even act in similar ways, but keep the civilization picks the way they are now to keep it simple.

Having said that, i do think it would be a cool idea to be able to rename your civ during gameplay. For eg, you play as the greeks, discover the republic, and decide that the Hellenic Republic sounds better than 'the kingdon of greece'.

 

[mitsho]

@akka, ok, after rereading the first post of Finisus, I must agree with you. You are totally correct, France is certainly more dominated by its roman roots than its germanic roots, and somewhere between, there are also Gaullic/Celtic, 'mediterranean'/Greek and so on roots...
I just got wrong what he said....

mfg mitsho

 

[Romanfe]

Oh, what essentially divides France from Germany is that-historically-France can draw its links back to the Roman Empire, as it was a Vassal of the Empire for so many centuries (this, too, is what links France, Britain and Spain). The so-called Aryan peoples-such as Germany, Sweden and Norway, OTOH, were never fully Romanicised-and so developed along a very different path to the other European nations.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

hahaha why not look up the map of the Frankish kingdom of the 9th century and the name Louis the German before your treat history like crap. Franks aren't celts.

oh hi there TREATY OF VERDUN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Verdun