Al Zan
King
how does this scenario work?
is it sometype of bonse?
is it sometype of bonse?
Civilizations' Religions
- Thread starter Dom Pedro II
- Start date
Mr. Dictator
A Chain-Smoking Fox
from what i can gather it will be a locked alliance sort of thing
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Are you talking about for my mod?
Well being that I am Cherokee I do know a lot of Iroquois religion because the Cherokee are very very similar to the Iroquois and are sometimes considered as an Iroquois offspring.
Although they are very very spiritual they don't really believe in god-worship. They are more in touch with natures and believe in certain omenous things and ancestral worship and stuff like that. Some tribes became Atheist or adopted Christian ways when they were pretty much wiped off the face of Earth. Native Americans in North America were in touch with nature and were pretty much the same as Daoists but less philosophical. Only a few tribes had god-worship and those gods were mainly natural forces rather than omnipotent beings of creation and destructions but instead were like the sun, moon, river, forest, or a large bear. Yes us Natives are nature-loving tree-huggers
.
I bet if the Natives were more religious we would probably have actually used the Earth and used the land as property rather than as a place to live and had some chance of building ourselves up.. but no.. we were tree-hugging hokies.
Although they are very very spiritual they don't really believe in god-worship. They are more in touch with natures and believe in certain omenous things and ancestral worship and stuff like that. Some tribes became Atheist or adopted Christian ways when they were pretty much wiped off the face of Earth. Native Americans in North America were in touch with nature and were pretty much the same as Daoists but less philosophical. Only a few tribes had god-worship and those gods were mainly natural forces rather than omnipotent beings of creation and destructions but instead were like the sun, moon, river, forest, or a large bear. Yes us Natives are nature-loving tree-huggers
.I bet if the Natives were more religious we would probably have actually used the Earth and used the land as property rather than as a place to live and had some chance of building ourselves up.. but no.. we were tree-hugging hokies.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
But there is no name for the religion persay?
Actually look what I found:
The relative ease at which the Iroquois Nation was able to provide for the needs of it's people allowed for the development of a systematic belief system that was more developed than most other systems found among Native American civilizations. According to Lewis H. Morgan, their religion is characterized by a monotheistic belief in an all-powerful creator known as the "Great Spirit", or "Ha-wen-ne-yu." "The Iroquois believed in the constant superintending care of the Great Spirit. He ruled and administered the world, and the affairs of the red race." (1954,146). The Iroquois failed to see the need in developing a detailed conception of their creator. This knowledge was thought to be above and beyond their capabilities to understand. His power was administered to the material world through "a class of inferior spiritual existences, by whom he was surrounded." (1954,147). While divine attributes concerning the Great Spirit remained undeveloped, the Iroquois gave detailed descriptions of this lower class of spirits that interacted with the material world. The were known as "Invisible Agents" or "Ho-no-che-no-keh." (Morgan 1954). The power possessed by these spirits was given to them by the Great Spirit and were the manifestations of his unlimited power. Some of these spirits were given names, however, they were often identified with the object or force that they presided over. For example, He-no, one of the more important spirits, was given the thunderbolt and controlled the weather. According to Morgan, he had the form of man and wore the costume of a warrior (1954,147).
While the Iroquois belief system centered around the idea of a benevolent Great Spirit, it did not ignore the existence of evil in the world. Evil is represented by the brother of the Great Spirit, "Ha-ne-go-ate-geh", or "the Evil-minded" (1954,147). This evil spirit exists independently and controls it's own inferior spiritual beings. These agents of evil also exist in the material world and are place there in an attempt to bring about evil. According to Morgan, the Great Spirit does not have any type of positive authority over the Evil-minded, except for the power to overcome him when necessary (1954,148). The red race is left to choose either obedience to the Great Spirit or submission to the Evil-minded. It is important to note that the Iroquois developed the idea of an immortal soul. This soul was judged by the Great Spirit upon the death of the body. The threat of punishment in the afterlife increased morality concerns, which aided in the success of the Iroquois Nation.
The ritual ceremonies practiced by the Iroquois tribes were systematic worship services that occurred in accordance to certain seasonal periods throughout the year. The rituals were handed down through the generation and remained unchanged for centuries. Festival most commonly occurred during important agricultural periods. Worship and thanks were given to the Great Spirit for protection and survival. One of the "Invisible Agents" were usually honored depending on what time of year the ceremony was taking place. The ceremonies were led by "Keepers of the Faith", or "Ho-nun-den-ont" (Morgan 1953,177). They were not an organized priesthood like one would imagine, but rather a loosely organized council of qualified individuals who were assigned the task of maintaining the ritual practices of the Iroquois people.
The belief system of the Iroquois was the closest a Native American civilization had come to the complex theology of Christianity. One major difference between the two religions is evident when looking at how each faith explains mankind's participation in the workings of the universe. While most Christian denominations sought to participate actively in the evolution of their world, the Iroquois say mankind as too insignificant to take part in the grand scheme of the Great Spirit. For example, many Christian denomination, like the Puritans of New England, believed that they were the chosen people of God and were working toward the creation of a true "Kingdom of God" located in America. The Iroquois, on the other hand, believed that the world was as it should be, and there was nothing that could be done by mankind to change this fact. This idea would eventually change somewhat as the Iroquois were influenced more and more by European Christianity. Furthermore, their ideas concerning punishment in the afterlife were also influenced by Christian concepts. According to Morgan, the Christian concept of purgatory seems to have seeped into the Iroquois belief system sometime during the white man's invasion (1954,163). While the Iroquois Nation was the strongest Native American civilization east of the Mississippi river, their integration into the dominant white culture went relatively smooth compared to most other instances of integration among the native tribes of North America. I think this was due to the similarities between their belief systems which made it easier for the two races to find common ground. The religion practiced by Iroquois descendants is remarkably similar to the one practiced by their ancestors. The similarities between the two distinct religions seem to have saved the weaker Native American system from extinction.
I hope this helps... I bet it will. I guess you can call it Hawenneyuism?
The relative ease at which the Iroquois Nation was able to provide for the needs of it's people allowed for the development of a systematic belief system that was more developed than most other systems found among Native American civilizations. According to Lewis H. Morgan, their religion is characterized by a monotheistic belief in an all-powerful creator known as the "Great Spirit", or "Ha-wen-ne-yu." "The Iroquois believed in the constant superintending care of the Great Spirit. He ruled and administered the world, and the affairs of the red race." (1954,146). The Iroquois failed to see the need in developing a detailed conception of their creator. This knowledge was thought to be above and beyond their capabilities to understand. His power was administered to the material world through "a class of inferior spiritual existences, by whom he was surrounded." (1954,147). While divine attributes concerning the Great Spirit remained undeveloped, the Iroquois gave detailed descriptions of this lower class of spirits that interacted with the material world. The were known as "Invisible Agents" or "Ho-no-che-no-keh." (Morgan 1954). The power possessed by these spirits was given to them by the Great Spirit and were the manifestations of his unlimited power. Some of these spirits were given names, however, they were often identified with the object or force that they presided over. For example, He-no, one of the more important spirits, was given the thunderbolt and controlled the weather. According to Morgan, he had the form of man and wore the costume of a warrior (1954,147).
While the Iroquois belief system centered around the idea of a benevolent Great Spirit, it did not ignore the existence of evil in the world. Evil is represented by the brother of the Great Spirit, "Ha-ne-go-ate-geh", or "the Evil-minded" (1954,147). This evil spirit exists independently and controls it's own inferior spiritual beings. These agents of evil also exist in the material world and are place there in an attempt to bring about evil. According to Morgan, the Great Spirit does not have any type of positive authority over the Evil-minded, except for the power to overcome him when necessary (1954,148). The red race is left to choose either obedience to the Great Spirit or submission to the Evil-minded. It is important to note that the Iroquois developed the idea of an immortal soul. This soul was judged by the Great Spirit upon the death of the body. The threat of punishment in the afterlife increased morality concerns, which aided in the success of the Iroquois Nation.
The ritual ceremonies practiced by the Iroquois tribes were systematic worship services that occurred in accordance to certain seasonal periods throughout the year. The rituals were handed down through the generation and remained unchanged for centuries. Festival most commonly occurred during important agricultural periods. Worship and thanks were given to the Great Spirit for protection and survival. One of the "Invisible Agents" were usually honored depending on what time of year the ceremony was taking place. The ceremonies were led by "Keepers of the Faith", or "Ho-nun-den-ont" (Morgan 1953,177). They were not an organized priesthood like one would imagine, but rather a loosely organized council of qualified individuals who were assigned the task of maintaining the ritual practices of the Iroquois people.
The belief system of the Iroquois was the closest a Native American civilization had come to the complex theology of Christianity. One major difference between the two religions is evident when looking at how each faith explains mankind's participation in the workings of the universe. While most Christian denominations sought to participate actively in the evolution of their world, the Iroquois say mankind as too insignificant to take part in the grand scheme of the Great Spirit. For example, many Christian denomination, like the Puritans of New England, believed that they were the chosen people of God and were working toward the creation of a true "Kingdom of God" located in America. The Iroquois, on the other hand, believed that the world was as it should be, and there was nothing that could be done by mankind to change this fact. This idea would eventually change somewhat as the Iroquois were influenced more and more by European Christianity. Furthermore, their ideas concerning punishment in the afterlife were also influenced by Christian concepts. According to Morgan, the Christian concept of purgatory seems to have seeped into the Iroquois belief system sometime during the white man's invasion (1954,163). While the Iroquois Nation was the strongest Native American civilization east of the Mississippi river, their integration into the dominant white culture went relatively smooth compared to most other instances of integration among the native tribes of North America. I think this was due to the similarities between their belief systems which made it easier for the two races to find common ground. The religion practiced by Iroquois descendants is remarkably similar to the one practiced by their ancestors. The similarities between the two distinct religions seem to have saved the weaker Native American system from extinction.
I hope this helps... I bet it will. I guess you can call it Hawenneyuism?
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Yes, it does help. Thank you.
Anyway, in my mod, the religious are techs, civ-specific techs. And they are essentially main branches to the "cultural" tech trees for the different civs. And in each of these main branches, smaller civ-specific techs branch off from them.
So Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity are the three most common trees (and the biggest as well). Their techs, since there are more civs to trade with, cost more than those who have very specific religions and almost entirely civ-specific cultural tech trees.
Then there is also a "scientific" tech tree that is common to everyone, and it basically includes "real" technologies rather than cultural developments/achievements.
The general idea of the mod is to make playing as each civilization a completely unique experience. Civ traits are accentuated, and I am trying to reflect their cultures. Some of the techs aren't factual, but are rather based on facts of how the civilization would likely have approached certain issues. Of course, this means a lot of testing and a lot of balancing. Some civilizations, the Zulu in particular, don't have a lot of strengths at this point.
Anyway, in my mod, the religious are techs, civ-specific techs. And they are essentially main branches to the "cultural" tech trees for the different civs. And in each of these main branches, smaller civ-specific techs branch off from them.
So Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity are the three most common trees (and the biggest as well). Their techs, since there are more civs to trade with, cost more than those who have very specific religions and almost entirely civ-specific cultural tech trees.
Then there is also a "scientific" tech tree that is common to everyone, and it basically includes "real" technologies rather than cultural developments/achievements.
The general idea of the mod is to make playing as each civilization a completely unique experience. Civ traits are accentuated, and I am trying to reflect their cultures. Some of the techs aren't factual, but are rather based on facts of how the civilization would likely have approached certain issues. Of course, this means a lot of testing and a lot of balancing. Some civilizations, the Zulu in particular, don't have a lot of strengths at this point.
Excellent idea. I had always heard that C3C included religious concepts as well as religious governments however I guess it didn't turn out that way. But we have are Brazilian friend Dom to do what Firaxis hasn't done. You are amazing and your idea is just what I wanted. Good luck, I'll be here to help you in any way possible.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Thanks. I may need some help with some of the tech trees.
I've been doing a lot of research on medicine, religion, education and such from countries around the world. And it's definitely churned up some interesting techs, but at the same time, there's a lot of gaps.
I've been doing a lot of research on medicine, religion, education and such from countries around the world. And it's definitely churned up some interesting techs, but at the same time, there's a lot of gaps.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Well, I've been trying to create a tech tree for the ancient era for the Middle Eastern civilizations like the Babylonians, Sumerians, Hittites, etc. that would be much more distinct for this region (or specifically to these civilizations), but most of the stuff I've been coming up with has been rather generic.
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
Camel Riding is researchable for them after Domestication, yes.
Enslavement could work, but it's a bit too generic I think since other civs will have the ability to enslave.
I was thinking Chariots as one possibility, but chariots were used by some European groups as well...
Of course, there are going to be some techs that are not truly unique to the particular group historically, but for the game, it works best that way.
I was thinking of other possibilities like Architecture, Canals. But they seem like they may be too generic as well.
I think that's really the main problem. I mean, these civilizations and the classical Greek and Roman civilizations are the ones that have me the most stumped, and I think that's because so much of the West is built on these early developments in these regions and so they either are common techs in the scientific tech tree, or it's just hard to find something that seems particular to these regions.
Enslavement could work, but it's a bit too generic I think since other civs will have the ability to enslave.
I was thinking Chariots as one possibility, but chariots were used by some European groups as well...
Of course, there are going to be some techs that are not truly unique to the particular group historically, but for the game, it works best that way.
I was thinking of other possibilities like Architecture, Canals. But they seem like they may be too generic as well.
I think that's really the main problem. I mean, these civilizations and the classical Greek and Roman civilizations are the ones that have me the most stumped, and I think that's because so much of the West is built on these early developments in these regions and so they either are common techs in the scientific tech tree, or it's just hard to find something that seems particular to these regions.
Very very true Dom. I was stumped about that too with a mod I was doing. I guess you'll have to go with generic things only for this era. Maybe taking some ideas from the Mesopatamian Conquest might help a little.. if you haven't already done so.
Rita Poon
You've just been Reinerd!
Naw, I just saw what Redking typed & guessed
Correct English word is "Asatruar"Tough to label polytheistic relgions without getting into specific cults.
Couldn't one call Sumerian religion Sumerian? Sort of like Jews=a religion & a civilization? My understanding is the Sumerians & Bablyonians had the exact same religion. Stupid to have both Sumerians AND Babylonians. Took out Gilgamesh in my mod. Hittite religion was probably related to Sumerian.
Maya/Aztec=Mesoamerican?
Greeks/Romans=Hellenic?
Iroquois/Zulu/Inca=Shamanism?
Could probably call them all Shamanistic. But would like more specific names to show a connection between Rome/Greece and Maya/Aztec.
Egypt=Kemetic!
Dom Pedro II
Modder For Life
I got rid of the Sumerians too. I felt it was just redundant.
Huns, Mongols, the Tunguz, the Altai and any such Turkic tribe can be categorized as "Shamanistic". They were in NO way atheists. Oh no...
Very short background on the thing:
- Ancient central Asian Turkic tribes believed in a "sky god" they called "kok tengri" (which is in modern Anatolian Turkish "gok tanri"). It was representing both the sun, the moon, and anything present at the sky when you look up
- They were monotheistic, believing in only the kok-tengri. That made it very easy for many tribes to convert to Islam later on.
- Their religious men are called "shamans". Many of you already know this, though The word "shaman" is coming from the Ural-Altai language group anyway.
In modern Turkish there are two commonly used words to describe god:
- Allah (coming straight from Arabic) meaning God. "Hakk, etc.." are other names that came from Arabic.
- Tanri (the new version of tengri) meaning god, just any god...
Very short background on the thing:
- Ancient central Asian Turkic tribes believed in a "sky god" they called "kok tengri" (which is in modern Anatolian Turkish "gok tanri"). It was representing both the sun, the moon, and anything present at the sky when you look up
- They were monotheistic, believing in only the kok-tengri. That made it very easy for many tribes to convert to Islam later on.
- Their religious men are called "shamans". Many of you already know this, though
The word "shaman" is coming from the Ural-Altai language group anyway.In modern Turkish there are two commonly used words to describe god:
- Allah (coming straight from Arabic) meaning God. "Hakk, etc.." are other names that came from Arabic.
- Tanri (the new version of tengri) meaning god, just any god...
Rita Poon
You've just been Reinerd!
Been lurking on the pagan boards...
"Kemet" or "Kemetic Orthodoxy" seems to be a relatively modern attempt to revive the Pharaonic Egyptian religion.
check out:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Kemetic/?tc=1
There's also an attempt to revive the ancient Greek religion. Though its tough to nail down how they refer to themselves. Some say"Hellenismos" some say "Dodekatheon"
Dodekatheon suggests 12 specific gods hold a special place in the religion. Hellenismos seems to be the preferred term.
check out:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Hellenismos/
Can't vouch for the historical accuracy of these groups. Most of these religions had no names when they were originally practiced.
"Kemet" or "Kemetic Orthodoxy" seems to be a relatively modern attempt to revive the Pharaonic Egyptian religion.
check out:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Kemetic/?tc=1
There's also an attempt to revive the ancient Greek religion. Though its tough to nail down how they refer to themselves. Some say"Hellenismos" some say "Dodekatheon"
Dodekatheon suggests 12 specific gods hold a special place in the religion. Hellenismos seems to be the preferred term.
check out:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Hellenismos/
Can't vouch for the historical accuracy of these groups. Most of these religions had no names when they were originally practiced.
