CivIV Quick Start – A dominant strategy emerges – Chop Every Tree (CET)

StanNP

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As mentioned in another thread here by DaveMcW, chopping appears the dominant strategy for initial expansion.

In CIVIII the dominant strategy for first 80 turns (to around 1000bc) was to maximize food production and create a city (or cities) that could produce a settler in 4 turns (or a worker in 2 turns). This requires +5 food and a granary, along with 30 shields produced in 4 turns (4 turn settler factory). Produce one or two of these and you could establish a dozen or more cites before 1000bc.

In CivIV, you no longer have to grow your city in order to produce a settler or worker. Instead, you just don’t grow at all while they are being produced. Both food AND hammers are used to calculate the production going toward a worker or settler.

This has the perverse effect of not encouraging you to grow you cities at all, but just to produce workers and settlers from the moment you found the city. However, you can’t produce enough food and hammers with only one population, unless….. You chop.

And chop and chop and chop. At 30 shields (or so, as you get further from your border the number goes down) and a 3-turn chop, your worker can produce 7.5 hammers per turn when you allow for a move and a 3 turn chop. This is a significant amount of return. In fact, it is such a good return that you are better off chopping every single forest around your cities before using your worker on any other improvements. This is a slight exaggeration but it is the rare tile, like the grassland gems, that have a large enough pay off to make that a priority over chopping another forest at the beginning of the game.

Here is a quick compare between building a pasture on pigs (+3 food assuming you have the tech) and chopping a forest (30 hammers). In the 20 turns after starting each action, the pasture gives you an additional +48 food. (4 turns to complete, 16 turns at +3 = 48). This would likely grow you city a couple of population, so add in an additional 24 hammers (3rd tile mined hill on turn 12) and 8 commerce (if on river). The forest gives you 30 hammers in only 4 turns. You have 16 additional turns to do other actions. If you just chop one more forest, you are at +60. At the start of the game, on your first worker, it is entirely possible to chop 5 forests in 20 turns, for a total of +150 hammers.

What makes this strategy really powerful is when you realize that your first settler does not return much for the cost in the first few turns, so instead of building a settler after the initial worker, you should build two or three additional workers and scouts or warriors to protect them, until you need the settler to expand your chopping into a new area with more forests

I’m sure that there are exceptions when you have minimal forests or that this strategy is mitigated when you are playing a tight map or a higher difficulty. But given a normal number of forests and Noble level, this is a dominant strategy.

The suggestion I made in the thread above was to switch the worker abilities granted by Bronze Working and Iron Working. In the current game version (1.09) you gain the ability to chop forests (~30 hammers) at Bronze Working and the ability to clear jungle (no hammers) at Iron Working. If these two abilities were switched then the starting strategy of worker - bronze working - Chop Every Tree (CET) strategy would not be as dominant.

This is minimal change in that it only impacts the game up to the point where you get Iron Working. From that point on, chopping would work exactly like it does today.

StanNP :cool:
 
Yeah, but how essential are those health benefits really? Playing on the higher difficulty levels where you don't get as much base health, you need the early boost from chopping more than ever, IMO.

I'm also very underwhelmed with lumbermills, and almost always find it better to build mines, farms, and cottages. As far as I can tell, the only thing that improves a lumbermill is a railroad, which has the same effect on a mine.
 
I'm still unsure about the massive chopping at the start of the game. At first I was pretty much against it, only rarely chopping my trees down when there were just too many of them. Then I started chopping some but not all forests, about 1/3 of them maybe. Trying to leave 3 in each city radius for the +1 health bonus. Mostly used to rush settlers/workers out. But now I'm leaning even farther towards the chop every tree approach. I mean founding a city by stone and chopping twice to get stonehenge completed just screams that there's something out of whack with the power of chopping.

Sure you lose health, sure you lose a little production in the late game. But how much benefit do you get? You get more than just the extra hammers, you earn interest on those extra hammers as well. You get libraries built sooner to speed up your research. Due to the increased research speed you get new techs sooner, leading to new buildings and new units sooner. So you get your university sooner too and your hospital sooner and your supermarket sooner. Who needs a health benefit? Then there's the fact that you have so much production early on you can take a dominating lead over the AI's. You have better units and more of them that you can use to cripple the AI during your forest chopping "golden age". Who cares if you've slightly weakened your cities late in the game if chopping those forests allowed you to take control of the game all the way in the beginning.

IMO, either the hammers per chop should be reduced to 10, or forest tiles should get an extra hammer at some tech (other than the current replaceable parts + railroad). Maybe give them +1 hammer at machinery as well. Then it would be much more difficult for people to decide whether to chop them down or not.
 
I usually don't go the chop every tree route but leave some intact. In the late game however when I'm in a good enough position to hand off my workers to an automated AI, I find they end up chopping the few precious trees I saved for lumbermills, meaning I'd have been better off using those chops early when the difference the bonus hammers made was substantially more useful. This is leading me to chop more and more of my trees early as anytime I try to save some, the AI ends up chopping them on me anyhow.

There is definately no denying the power of the chop though and I agree it may be a bit too powerful, but I like it the way it is.
 
Nice article Stan.

The only time I missed my forests was an emperor level game in which I was going for space. In that game, I did indeed hit a health "wall." In all my other games (going for domination at the same difficulty level, or other victory conditions at a lower difficulty), I didn't miss the forests at all. In fact, most of the lower-difficulty games were over before I researched replaceable parts for lumber mills.

However, I have not employed CET to the extent that you are talking about. I have been leaving a forest or two for a city if it has no access to hills, building farms early, and only building one worker before a settler. But there is usally a worker or two chopping for each city in the early game if the city is building a settler, worker, granary or an important wonder. If the city is building something I don't get huge benefit from right away, then I don't see much reason to chop the forest if I can use it for long-term shield benefit.

I am still a bit unsure of your comparison on the chop vs. pasture (or farm, mine, etc.). If the city is building one of the things I listed above, then a shield is just as valuable as a food (or moreso), and a chop is a pretty good option. However, if you pasture the pigs before chopping the forest, then you also pick up the extra 12 food while you are chopping, so you can get the extra growth AND the shields from the chop. And the next chop, and the next...

Sometimes it is a good idea to do a terrain improvement before the chop. But you are certainly right--before the pasture or after, that forest is coming down.
 
It's interesting to note that existing forests are what spawn new forests to grow, so it might be beneficial to leave forests within your borders, but not within a city's workable radius. With luck, you can be getting new forest spawns in the nearby cities for the rest of the game.
 
You've presented a false dichotomy -- there's a third choice here: I could do a worker improvement or two, and -then- start clear cutting.


The problem is that cutting is a fixed, one-time bonus, whereas an improvement keeps on giving. In more concrete terms:

If I spend turns improving tiles, I can still get the hammer bonus by cutting trees later.

If you spend turns cutting, you have forever lost your chance at getting the benefit of the improved tiles.


In other words, I'm going to improve my tiles early to get their benefit, and if I so desire, I'm going to get just as many hammers from chopping forests as you.

Your only advantage, then, is that you get your hammers from chopping before I get my hammers from chopping.

So, in order for your approach to work, you need to find some way to turn those early hammers into a lasting advantage, and I don't see anything in your strategy for doing that.


For a quick comparison, let's consider this scenario that is probably ideal for the one who improves tiles first: we start with agriculture and mining, and there's a grassland corn by the river.

If we quickly build 2 workers and a settler, and my calculations are correct, you get all your units one turn quicker than me, but at the point my settler pops, I have 10 hammers towards my next build than you have, an improved tile that you do not have, and I have one more forest left than you.

I have absolutely no idea what magic you could pull to turn your advantage into a superior position.


Suppose I still plan to make three workers and chop away, but the situation isn't so ideal (say, I have to research a tech to improve my land, and then research bronze working).

So, I can do something like pasture my pigs, mine a plains hill, and then start clear cutting my forests. You now have a bigger time advantage, but the clock is ticking, since my city is greatly outproducing your city. What are you going to do with your time advantage that outweighs the great benefit I'm getting from my improved land?
 
Ahhh, as in real life, a ruler is given a harsh choice to make-does he order the clear-felling of ALL his precious forests for short term gains, or does he hold on to most of them so that he can extract maximum benefits from it in a sustainable fashion (particularly post-environmentalism). It is these kinds of valuable choices which, IMO, make the game so much FUN :)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
It's too rare, though. Two or three extra forests during the whole game don't make much of a difference, and forests can only expand onto completely unmodified tiles (not even a road allowed).

I wonder what the beta testers think of this?
 
i didnt play gotm with this technique but some experimentation has made me a fan of it. Specifically though i save my chops for stuff that helps my city grow or avoids it not growing. As far as the downside. Those things are a luxury imo. We are all fimiliar with the fact that in civ3 a few turns difference at the start can me expodentially more power at 0ad because you get off things earlier that get off things of their own etc. The same applies here with chopping for growth
 
Bronze Working is a tradeoff as well. It's not exactly a commerce boosting tech. There are other approaches that can put you 20-30 turns ahead in the tech race, easy. (And some that will put you 50+ and gaining.)
 
StanNP said:
Here is a quick compare between building a pasture on pigs (+3 food assuming you have the tech) and chopping a forest (30 hammers). In the 20 turns after starting each action, the pasture gives you an additional +48 food. (4 turns to complete, 16 turns at +3 = 48). This would likely grow you city a couple of population, so add in an additional 24 hammers (3rd tile mined hill on turn 12) and 8 commerce (if on river). The forest gives you 30 hammers in only 4 turns. You have 16 additional turns to do other actions. If you just chop one more forest, you are at +60. At the start of the game, on your first worker, it is entirely possible to chop 5 forests in 20 turns, for a total of +150 hammers.

This analysis seems totally wrong. If you spend the first 4 turns building the pasture, then you get 48 food over the next 16 turns. And you can still chop 4 forests for 120 hammers in the next 16 turns. Why would it be better to have 150 hammers, than 120 hammers plus 48 food plus the extra hammers the extra population generated plus the extra pasture on the board plus the extra forest on the board? It doesn't seem even close.

StanNP said:
I’m sure that there are exceptions when you have minimal forests or that this strategy is mitigated when you are playing a tight map or a higher difficulty. But given a normal number of forests and Noble level, this is a dominant strategy.

Noble level is so wimpy that any strategy will crush the computer players (once players are experienced with the game---that's not to say it's unreasonable to have the first GOTM at a low difficulty level while people are just learning how it works). I think you can start in many different ways and end up at essentially the same point. (But, if you start by chopping your forests first, while I start by building my pastures first, I expect I'll end up significantly ahead of you.) Noble level also makes health and happiness irrelevant in the early game; at more serious difficulty levels (Emperor and up), you have to think very seriously about health and happiness even quite early in the game.

I do agree that chopping some forests to get your growth going is quite powerful. I don't agree that it overwhelms the other very important things to do, like building pastures, farms, and mines on your resources, and roads to connect them (at those difficulty levels where happiness and health actually matter in the early game).
 
I know i started in a way that would have got me stomped on prince and still eeked out a 5800pt win. Ive had civ4 a week as of today despite all my posting =). You guys would laugh if i had written down how late my first worker was. Since then ive worked on my worker chop starts. And it may or may not be best but after a few practice runs it sure beats the pants off of nonchop-nonknowing starts. IE its easy to blast off to a fairly substantial start just chopping growth stuff like mad.

though im currently impressed with religion and on prince you can get hinduism or buddism (i got buddism this gotm). I go for that before bronze working. On monarch starts ive never managed to get either.

BTW watch the computer. It doesnt switch city squares for worker/settler production and since food and shields are interchangable i find it often doesnt have the fastest build squares picked.

As for things you can get before bronze working that help your commerce. IE the idea that chopping isnt best because you have to waste time on the copper working tech. How do you survive on monarch+ when the barbarians show up pretty early with axemen.

I didnt build axemen in this GOTM however on monarch ive had horrible problems with axemen barbarians if i didnt get to axemen asap. What im getting at is while there might be a sweet spot around chopping via not getitng an early bronze working on novice and prince are you sure it will be there for you when your trying to survive barbarian axemen on monarch+? Im not arguing im asking.

Thats why ive become attached to it though. Not only does bronze working get you access to ferocious growth but it gets you access to an important unit. (maybe to much for one tech imo)

And yes i played far to much civ4 in those 7 days =)
 
Renata said:
It's too rare, though. Two or three extra forests during the whole game don't make much of a difference, and forests can only expand onto completely unmodified tiles (not even a road allowed).

I wonder what the beta testers think of this?

Can forests re-grow on a tile that has been chopped but not otherwise improved? I had a bunch of unworkable forest tiles near one city (because of the 3-tile rule, I couldn't settle another city near it); would I have been able to continually chop and wait for regrowth on these tiles?
 
Renata said:
It's too rare, though. Two or three extra forests during the whole game don't make much of a difference, and forests can only expand onto completely unmodified tiles (not even a road allowed).

Several people have seen forests grow on tiles with roads.

I do agree that the rate of forest growth is so low that it's insignificant for game purposes.
 
I think a big reason you see this in this game are the circumstances. Roman's start with mining and get their uu with iron working so it makes sense to go bw and iw real early. With other civs (especially the religious oriented ones) bw usually isn't an early tech, you are probably going religious. However, I do make it a habit to cut the trees along river and hills, I usually leave them on plains and grasslands that aren't along rivers. If you cut the trees along the river you immediately get that +1 commerce which partially balances out the 2 hammers and if you build a farm or a cottage you are breaking even in the amount the tile produces. Sure you lose a tiny bit of health, but that's about it, water wheels and/or windmills are just about as good in most situations IMO. I think its very situational based, and in this case it makes sense that's why you are seeing a lot of it in this game. I bet if we started with Aztec or Spanish next GOTM you probably wouldn't see as much chopping early on.
 
Aeson said:
Bronze Working is a tradeoff as well. It's not exactly a commerce boosting tech. There are other approaches that can put you 20-30 turns ahead in the tech race, easy. (And some that will put you 50+ and gaining.)
And what might those be? :)
 
Your only advantage, then, is that you get your hammers from chopping before I get my hammers from chopping.

So, in order for your approach to work, you need to find some way to turn those early hammers into a lasting advantage, and I don't see anything in your strategy for doing that.
I'm getting quick start on establishing my civ. I'm using chops to build workers and settlers. Grabbing good city sites and expanding you borders quickly has many benifits, less animals, barbs and especially if the AI can't enter your border. ;)

This analysis seems totally wrong. If you spend the first 4 turns building the pasture, then you get 48 food over the next 16 turns. And you can still chop 4 forests for 120 hammers in the next 16 turns. Why would it be better to have 150 hammers, than 120 hammers plus 48 food plus the extra hammers the extra population generated plus the extra pasture on the board plus the extra forest on the board? It doesn't seem even close.
Actually, I just spent a bit plugging the numbers and I was wrong. It turns out that the 30 hammers from a chop on turn 4 applied to a worker build and then again on turn 8 so you have a 2nd worker, then continuing until turn 16 before you build a pasture is almost exactly a wash with building a pasture first then chopping and making more workers through to turn twenty.

So if you want to compare a 4 turn camp/farm/mine/pasture with chopping, the break even in the short term (20 turns) is around +3 food or hammers. So if you worker does not have a tile to improve that includes a bonus resource, you do better chopping then building a regular mine or farm.

StanNP :cool:
 
Birdjaguar said:
And what might those be? :)

Some that come to mind:

Pottery and Cottages
Writing, Library (and/or Caste System), Scientists, Academy
Oracle->Civil Service
Founding Religions for Shrines (long term)
Beeline to Alphabet to start tech trading
Pyramids for Representation

Mix and match to suit the situation. In most cases, Bronze Working first will be slower at all those things save the Pyramids.
 
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